Campaign: Atheist Bus
21.10.08 | Ariane |
Atheism, Atheist Bus Campaign, Donation, Donations, Fundraising, Humour, London Buses, Richard Dawkins, Slogan, Thank You
** We reached the total at 1006 BST (GMT+1) on 21st October, just over 10 hours after launch – thank you so much to everyone who contributed! If you haven’t donated yet and would like to then please do – we are now aiming to launch a full advertising campaign across the UK! **
The Atheist Bus Campaign launches today, Tuesday October 21. With your support, we hope to raise £5,500 to run 30 buses across the capital for four weeks with the slogan: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” Donate online now!
Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, is officially supporting the Atheist Bus Campaign, and has generously agreed to match all donations up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we reach the full amount – enough for a much bigger campaign. Our campaign partner, the British Humanist Association, will be administering all donations.
With your help, we can brighten people’s days on the way to work, help raise awareness of atheism in the UK, and hopefully encourage more people to come out as atheists. We can also counter the religious adverts which are currently running on London buses, and help people think for themselves.
As Richard Dawkins says: “This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think – and thinking is anathema to religion.”
856 Responses to “Campaign: Atheist Bus”
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Pages: « 1 … 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 … 18 » Show All
February 9th, 2009 at 23:14
Paul N, you said: “Phil & Werner – why won’t either of you respond to the challenge presented regarding the Hindu gods?”
Hi Paul, it’s not that I won’t take up the challenge – I was actually having my tea and then bathing my little lad. So that is why I hadn’t responded…
Anyway, in response to johnnyess, who said: “Why doesn’t Phil open himself up to the Hindu gods?”
My answer would probably be similar to that of some of the Atheists on here – simply that I don’t believe they are real… I believe that there is one true God, the God who created everything (however you think it happened: creation / evolution / big bang etc – God did it!!). So as I don’t believe the Hindu (or any other) gods are real, then there is no point in me “opening myself up to them”.
In my challenge, I haven’t forced anyone to take part or believe – just suggested to give it a go if they want to and if nothing happens and God doesn’t show up for them, then they can carry on as they were. It’s up to them!! Obviously, I hope God does turn up for them – as it will transform thier lives for the better.
With regards to Jesus being portrayed as a western european – I think if you talk to many Christians you will find we are not all that dumb and realise that Jesus wasn’t a white guy with long blond hair!!
Paul N, you said: “If only you could clear your mind and see religion for what it is – a human construct for controlling other humans” As I have mentioned previously, knowing God doesn’t have to be about religion at all – people have come to know and believe in him through never going to church and never hearing about him anywhere – God has just revealed himself to them – so this cannot be about humans controlling humans.
Also Paul, with regard to Christians “burning people at the stake”, yes many wrongs have been commited in the name of religion and none of these wrongs would have been ok with God!!
Phil.
February 9th, 2009 at 23:27
Hi Phil,
Your challenge is proceeding well. However, no supernatural beings, gods or spirits has let themselves be know to me so far. I can assure my mind is open to the idea – for a start i used to attend a church much like yours.
However, theres a problem.
‘
What happens if the god that talks to me… is not the god that talks to you? Let say ’she’ reveals herself under a different name ….say ‘Barbara’… for arguments sake. Now, you will obviously not share my belief in ‘Barbara’ – however after your challenge I now have ‘faith’. So, my question is….does Barbara exist? I have already listed many other gods – different to the christian/muslim one. You *still* have not explained why they do not contact you or why you do not believe in them.
For example, do you believe Ganesh helps you through life? He is the god of obstacles for hindus. My challenge to you is to open your mind this week so that Ganesh can speak to you. Let me know how it goes.
February 9th, 2009 at 23:36
Hi Phil,
sorry – i missed some of your post, and have just caught you said this…..
“So as I don’t believe the Hindu (or any other) gods are real, then there is no point in me “opening myself up to them”.
I’m not sure if you fully appreciate the significance of this: When it comes to the Hindu gods, youre an atheist – just as I am to your god. You simply dont believe. You do not have faith.
I asked you to open your mind for a week to let the hindu gods in, just as you asked me. Now, why should I continue to take your challenge for your god, if you wont take my challenge to open your heart to other gods?
take care
February 9th, 2009 at 23:50
Well, Phil, you’ve really shot yourself in the foot this time (#401): “I don’t believe they are real… So as I don’t believe the Hindu (or any other) gods are real, there is no point in me [I would have said "my" but I am a bit pedantic, and I've noticed that Christians tend on the whole to be less grammatical than atheists] ‘opening myself up to them.’” Extrapolate that to all the other gods (including your own) and you will have understood atheism completely. Think about it.
February 10th, 2009 at 0:16
Hi Phil,
You said -”My answer would probably be similar to that of some of the Atheists on here – simply that I don’t believe they are real… I believe that there is one true God, the God who created everything (however you think it happened: creation / evolution / big bang etc – God did it!!). So as I don’t believe the Hindu (or any other) gods are real, then there is no point in me “opening myself up to them”.
In my challenge, I haven’t forced anyone to take part or believe – just suggested to give it a go if they want to and if nothing happens and God doesn’t show up for them, then they can carry on as they were. It’s up to them!! Obviously, I hope God does turn up for them – as it will transform thier lives for the better.”
I can hear (metaphorically, of course) a Hindu saying the same thing about your god. How does a rational person decide between you? He can’t, of course, because they are equivalent. You haven’t answered this.
You say – “With regards to Jesus being portrayed as a western european – I think if you talk to many Christians you will find we are not all that dumb and realise that Jesus wasn’t a white guy with long blond hair!!”
Now you choose to be rational – why is this part of the indoctrination ‘dumb’ (your word, not mine) and the trinity not ‘dumb’, or Adam & Eve, or Moses, or walking on water and the rest. Do you believe in any of this or are reduced to saying ‘there must be *something* out there, mustn’t there’?
You say – “As I have mentioned previously, knowing God doesn’t have to be about religion at all – people have come to know and believe in him through never going to church and never hearing about him anywhere – God has just revealed himself to them – so this cannot be about humans controlling humans.” Sorry, but how has god revealed himself? This is just hearsay and irrelevant. I could tell you that a pink camel has ‘revealed’ itself to me, and you would give that the credence it deserved.
Finally, you say -”Also Paul, with regard to Christians “burning people at the stake”, yes many wrongs have been commited in the name of religion and none of these wrongs would have been ok with God!!”
The point I was making here was that religion holds back understanding of our world, sometimes forcefully. Things that I suppose even you accept to be true (the sun at the centre of the solar system) were previously taken to be heretical, using exactly the same statements as you have been making – ‘I know him, he is this, he is that, he does this, he does that’.
Paul
February 10th, 2009 at 0:51
Hi Johnnyess, that is strange – my foot doesn’t hurt at all!! Maybe God has healed it (hehe!!). As I have said before, I believe in one true God. The God who created everything – including me and you.
Just like I have one Natural Father on earth, I believe in one God who created me. There is no point me trying to find other Natural Fathers – as I can only have one here on earth – just like I only have one God who created me.
Sorry if any of the grammar is incorrect Johnnyess!! I am a designer and musician – not a literary genius.
Paul N has just said: “I can hear (metaphorically, of course) a Hindu saying the same thing about your god. How does a rational person decide between you? He can’t, of course, because they are equivalent. You haven’t answered this.”
A rational person can put them to the test… you could try my challenge with the Hindu gods as well if you like and see what happens. See who’s God turns up…
Paul N, the Trinity, Adam and Eve, Moses, walking on the water etc are all central parts of the bible – where does it say Jesus was a western european – it doesn’t – that is someting that had been added incorrectly by religion over the years.
Paul N just said: “This is just hearsay and irrelevant.” It is not hearsay when I actually know the people this has happened to and thier lives have been transformed.
Paul N, yes, religion has been used to hold back scientific understanding – BUT God has given us brains and some very clever scientists who are discovering amazing things about us, our planet, and solar system etc. Sometimes they may get it right, sometimes not, sometimes they may even contradict each other – but as each new discovery is found – it just goes to increase how awesome God is because he created it all.
I hope that answers some of your questions about what I believe – I haven’t got time to check all the posts on here all of the time. So if I don’t always respond right away – sorry!!
I am impressed with the amount of questions and comments just a few small posts can get…
All the best to those who are taking up the challenge – (ask God each morning to show he is real this week)
eoin – I am happy to say the same to the hindu gods if it means you will carry on doing the challenge with the one true God.
Thanks everyone, Phil.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:23
Phil,
I continue my ‘burning at the stake’ strand … so you believe that Adam & Eve existed, as described in the bible? That is, there was a garden of Eden, etc.
Just that story alone is pathetic – the idea that, through the curiosity of one person, the whole of humanity carries the burden of Adam’s sin of ‘knowledge’. Ignorance is equated with innocence. How depressing is that?
Even if, as I suspect you might say, it’s an apocryphal story, the idea that a thirst for knowledge is equated with evil is a repugnant idea and confirms my idea that forcing children to believe in this nonsense is merely a way of controlling them.
Paul.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:37
Hi Paul N, Take a look at…
http://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html
I think this explains it pretty well.
Phil.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:53
I had intended not to get involved in this debate because I know it is pointless to reason with people who have rejected reason. A believer is like a drowning man clinging to a lifebelt hoping to be rescued, he can see the shore a few hundred metres away but he is afraid to strike out for it. The longer he clings on the harder it is to let go. He has made this commitment and to reconsider is impossible.
Faith is like that, it is a drug that holds people back from reaching their true potential. Believers live in a bubble (on dear, another metaphor) that they fear will be punctured if they ever really honestly examine their faith.
As others have said not only do they believe in god but in a particular brand of god. The christian ridicules the hindu without seeing the absurd position this places him in. His god is just as ridiculous as was Thor and Mithras.
Let us hope that one day humankind will finally grow up and leave all superstition behind but until then I support your right to hold these beliefs however infantile, so long as you do not seek any special privileges for them or attempt to indoctrinate children with them.
February 10th, 2009 at 11:15
Hi Graham, if I was holding on to a lifebelt – I wouldn’t be drowning? Hey, I could always walk on the water back to shore – hehe!! No, seriously, my faith and the fact that I have God in my life is the only way I can reach my full true potential – God designed us, he has a plan for our lives, a plan that is the best for us. We can only reach our potential if we include God.
Also, I think you will find I didn’t ridicule Hindu’s – I just put across my belief in one true God. I even said to eoin that I would take up his challenge to open ask the hindu gods to show they are real – if he, in turn, asks the one true God to show that he is real over this week.
Maybe you could try my challenge – every morning for a week or so ask God to show you that he is real and loves you and see what happens – if nothing happens, carry on as you are, but if something does happen – great!! Or are you scared that your bubble of reason might burst..?
Have a nice day, Phil.
February 10th, 2009 at 13:39
Phil
I think we can agree that belief (or lack of it) is a personal, and relative, experience. My lack of belief in god(s) is no less important than your belief in the christian god, or hindus’ belief in their respective gods. No doubt hindus’ have ‘experienced’ their gods in the same way that you have ‘experienced’ yours, and these experiences are equally as valid. It’s a matter of choice – you may prefer apples to oranges, whereas I prefer the latter – neither of us is incorrect, it’s just a matter of personal choice, and no more. Had you been born to hindu parents, it’s likely that you too would be a hindu.
When it comes down to it, whether god exists or not is irrelevant, in the same way that the existence of Bertrand Russell’s celestial teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell’s_teapot) is irrelevant – it only becomes relevant when we experience it directly, or have irrefutable evidence that it exists. You say you have ‘experienced’ your god which has led you to believe; I have not, and therefore I don’t.
I don’t really understand what you are asking us to do when you say that we “open ourselves to him”. I spend an unhealthy amount of time asking myself these fundamental questions, trying to make sense of the world in which I live. I’m pretty well read, open-minded, and I have given god ample opportunity to make himself known to me. He has not – and therefore, until compelling evidence comes along to the contrary, I shall continue not to believe in him.
All of this is well and good, but the problem comes when one group takes priority over the others. Whilst many religions are protected by law, non-religion is not…and it needs to be.
No-one should be treated any differently because of what they do or do not believe. The legislative framework in the UK, however, is moving in the opposite direction; state-funded faith schools, religious discrimination in the workplace, etc. The Atheist Bus campaign is an opportunity to show the non-believing public that someone is listening to them.
February 10th, 2009 at 14:30
Sorry – haven’t been tracking the posts due to work commitments and meetings etc.
I believe in God the Father – Abba Father who created heaven and Earth. I don’t have to open myself up to any other gods – if indeed they existed. As an atheist on the other hand, you don’t believe in anything – your eyes will be opened by actively seeking God.
just a quickie – have to get back to work.
Seek Him – with everything
February 10th, 2009 at 14:37
Well put Werner – thanks!
Phil.
February 10th, 2009 at 14:44
Phil & Werner,
I didn’t think you’d have the bottle to really try and answer the difficult questions.
All you can do is draw back into your fantasy world.
Pathetic.
February 10th, 2009 at 15:01
Phil & Werner,
I am trying hard to find a form of words that is not too insulting. The divine light that you claim is actually a state of serene delusion and so riddled with inconsistencies as to be ridiculous (no offence).
I hope the blind faith that you demonstrate does not include crossing a busy road with your eyes closed, probably not (but please don’t try it to prove a point).
I will leave you with a few quotes from people far more enlightened than me.
As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.”
Michael Bakunin
[God and the State]
Ludwig Feuerbach
“Man first creates God in his own image, and after this God creates man in his own image”
[Abridged from The Essence of Christianity]
Galileo
The intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how heaven goes.
David Hume
“One may safely affirm that all popular theology as a kind of appetite for absurdity and contradiction….while their gloomy apprehensions make them ascribe to Him measures of conduct which in human creatures would be blamed, they must still affect to praise and admire that conduct in the object of their devotional addresses.”
[The Natural History of Religion]
Thomas Jefferson:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
Karl Marx
“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
[A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right]
Charles de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu
“If triangles had a god, he would have three sides.”
[Lettres Persanes, no 59]
Michel de Montaigne
“Man is certainly crazy. He could not make a mite, and he makes gods by the dozen.”
[Essays, bk II, ch. 12]
Thomas Paine
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called religion.
[Abridged from The Age of Reason]
Blaise Pascal
“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
[Pensees]
Bertrand Russell
“I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.”
[Abridged Why I Am Not A Christian]
Jonathan Swift:
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love.
Mark Twain:
In religion people’s beliefs and convictions are gotten second-hand, and without examination.
Abridged
Voltaire
“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.”
[Letters]
Man was born free, and everywhere he is in chains
Jean Jacques Rousseau
Du Contrat social
February 10th, 2009 at 15:05
Werner
On the contrary, as an atheist, I believe in many things.
I believe in the variety and beauty of the natural world, and the majesty of the universe. I believe in love, joy and wonder. I believe in science, art, literature, poetry. I believe in man’s capacity for exploration and limitless thirst for knowledge.
What I don’t believe is that any of these things are the product of a omnipotent sky fairy.
February 10th, 2009 at 15:17
in terms of the hindu gods – which one of the 300 million (literally) should i open myself up to – how can a person serve 300 gods – how do you keep track of worship and prayer time – serving one God of all is much better – and less confusing. The bible states that there are other gods – and i believe there is – all evil spirits of lucifer – God the father is master of them all and they cower at His feet.
I’m so Glad Phill posed a little challenge – i can’t wait to hear the feedback.
for those of you who will be taking up Phils challenge – we WILL be praying for you.
Blessings in Christ.
February 10th, 2009 at 15:28
Werner
I am glad you stick to the one god and rely on his holy book so I am sure that you find that these quotes familiar:
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.”
Exodus 21:20-21
No child of an incestuous union may be admitted into the community of the Lord, nor any descendent of his even to the tenth generation.”
Deuteronomy 23:3
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”
Leviticus 20:13
“A priest’s daughter who loses her honour by committing fornication and thereby dishonours her father also, shall be burned to death.”
Leviticus 21:9
February 10th, 2009 at 15:59
Hi All,
I’m not sure how seriously you are all debating this: does either side really think it will convince the other? I suspect that is an impossibility.
So here’s the REAL challenge: How do we share this world between those who believe one thing and those who believe another, whether it is between atheism, christianity, islam or whatever? Each group knows, as deeply as it is possible to know, that their view is correct. Each side might be willing to let the other go their own way … but only up to a point. When we see people of other beliefs impose them on the defenceless, such as children, or women, or even animals, we feel we have to intervene. Believers think it unfair for children to damned to hell because their parents won’t bring them correctly. None believers are equally unhappy that women are relegated to second place in society, or that children are forced into prayer of a god they think is false.
My own thoughts are that maybe the kind of social integration, as we attempt to practice it in Britain, is not actually possible, and doomed to failure, and that the only solution is some big (very big) walls.
Anyone got a better idea?
February 10th, 2009 at 21:12
Hi Graham
It’s good to know that you know the verses of the Bible so well. Or maybe you had one close by. Or maybe you chose to memorize the ones that you like because it reflects in your opinion that God wants to completely annihilate all who do not follow His commands. Firstly, one cannot take one verse out of context of the rest of the passage, the rest of the particular book and of the Entire Word of God. a Lot of Christians do that also – claim one verse that applies to them and throw the rest away. Secondly – these verses are from the Old Testament – before Christ. Christ was the New Covenant that God made with man, and God said: “I shall think of your sins no more”. There is no more punishment for sin – go and check the new testament and you will see this. It is now about obedience. God doesn’t punish you – but through our disobedience to God, we allow Satan into our lives. Fortunately for us, Jesus did not only die for our sins but also for our suffering – physical, mental or otherwise.
Jesus loves you – and so much wants to have a personal relationship with you – if you would only allow Him to. Go ahead – search for Him and ask HIm to show you that He is real.
Last question – why would there be a roman calander that states BC (Before Christ) and AC (After Christ) if Jesus did not walk the earth….
Graham I bless you with freedom of bondage, A heart of flesh and insight into God’s Character in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen
good night…
February 11th, 2009 at 10:43
Werner
I am sure that you are a nice bloke and so it rankles to insult you yet again.
You have decided that the obscene sentiments expressed in one part of the bible are not to be taken seriously or are quoted out of context. Well that’s a relief, so god has now had second thoughts and “A priest’s daughter who loses her honour by committing fornication and thereby dishonours her father also, shall be burned to death.” Leviticus 21:9 is not really what he meant.
It seems to me that the omnipotent one should have been a little more circumspect in his choice of language. His change of heart is breathtaking, in the second part of your book he has decided that rather than punish our “sins” he will forgive them, what a relief so now I can sleep with my daughter and beat my slaves, what a relief.
The absurdity of all this nonsense is clear to me and many others here but you are so afraid to face the obvious truth that your god is a myth and his book is no more than fiction.
There will come a time when humankind will grow up and leave fear and superstition nehind unfortunately it will not be in our lifetime. Like me you will die and be forgotten, our bones may be dug up by some future archaeologist who will never know that you lived hoping for a better life whilst I lived cherishing this one.
February 11th, 2009 at 11:37
Hi Graham. Thanks for the ‘nice bloke’ comment. Much appreciated. As for the insults – I take them gladly.
You still don’t get it do you? You are completely oblivious of the thousands of promises in the word of God. In the old testament God gave His people the ten commandments. He made a covenant with them. They broke the covenant. He had to make a new plan to save them. He sent Jesus. NOW – we can approach the Father with confidence and freedom – through Christ. This does not mean that you can now disregard the laws of the Ten Commandments and all the others as you’ve quoted. It simply means that here and now – there are no ‘punishment’ for your sins – there are however consequences of them – suffering at the hands of Lucifer who you have given authority in your life. And in the Life after this one – your actions will be judged. I know you probably don’t believe in the ‘powers of darkness’ either – but that’s the reality. One day – the world will not be without religion. That day will never come. Instead there will be a ‘day of the Lord’ where every tongue will confess and every knee will bow.
Think about your previous comment – Think about it – is incest natural? Is homosexuality natural? Not even in the animal kingdom do you find these things – it’s Unnatural – against God’s design.
Life – I absolutely cherish every waking moment. I don’t hope for a better one. This one is perfect! I am assured of a life after this one too – where I will spend eternity in God’s Love and Grace.
Have you decided to take Phil’s challenge? I again want to urge you to do it.
Keep well.
February 11th, 2009 at 12:03
Werner
I am pleased that of the tens of thousands of gods that mankind has worshiped since the dawn of time that you have found the only true one. (And I use the word mankind rather than humankind as they all seem to have been invented by men).
Maybe the odds are a bit better than winning the lottery but you must have wondered whatever happened to all the Mithras followers or the Woden supporters. Sorry I forgot they got it wrong.
In the long history of our species so many “got it wrong” but your god was happy for them all to die in blissful ignorance of their mistake, he sounds like a rather unpleasant sort of chap so I cannot understand why a nice bloke like associated with him!
February 11th, 2009 at 12:10
Werner
I didn’t break any kind of covenant with anyone. That god blames me for this seems a little unfair. At least Adam & Eve had a choice – they spoke with god directly and therefore had some indication that he actually existed. If god wants to do the same for me, then I’ll happily believe in him. If he can’t be bothered, then that’s up to him. I don’t care either way.
Why is it that god’s message is always passed through other people? He must realise by now that most people consider Christians as fruitcakes (please refer to your numerous posts, many of which sound like the ramblings of a madman); you would have thought that he’d provide them with a little more in their armoury – a few minor miracles here and there would help your cause no end.
February 11th, 2009 at 12:43
Werner
My multi-tasking skills are not great, as can be seen by the mistakes in my posts. I have to get back to my “day job”.
I wish you all the best
Graham
February 11th, 2009 at 12:57
Hi Graham. nough said then? fine. Take up Phil’s challenge. Please do so. till then.
Red Citrus – your right – you didn’t break the covenant – The israelites did – approx 1000BC. Because of them – there is a new covenant. God does not blame you for it, and it is because of Adam and Eve that we are were we are today. God DOES want to speak to you. Maybe your just not listening.
Minor Miracles – do yourself a favour and seek out when there will be a healing and deliverance service in your area again – and attend it. I can also suggest you contact Ellel Ministries in the UK. They do those kinds of services all over the UK. If seeing is believing for you – go and see, and then believe. Do a web search on aricles of healing ministries and actual accounts (independantly verifiable) and you’ll see.
and for you too – take up Phil’s challenge – and hear and see – and then believe.
Blessing till next time.
February 11th, 2009 at 13:17
Ahh, Werner, it’s starting to become clear.
There’s no point continuing this discussion now you’ve raised the spectre of “spiritual healing”.
There has NEVER been a single case of independently-verified healing that is not either a) psychosomatic, or b) illusions.
Funny how these miracle cures never include the replacement of lost limbs and are always for blindness or stiff backs and suchlike which are much easier to fake.
I saw David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear once. Of course he didn’t really: it just looked that way. I don’t worship David Copperfield as a god.
Werner, you are more gullible than I thought.
Goodbye.
February 11th, 2009 at 13:31
Britain Capitulates To Terror
This is appalling!
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/arts/3344161/britain-capitulates-to-terror.thtml#comments
February 11th, 2009 at 21:31
Wow, after reading Werner’s last post, I’m starting to think Rik GG’s bricks and mortar are gonna be needed.
OK, let’s get down to the nitty-gritty.
Werner and Phil, if your god told to you to kill someone – Abraham style – would you do it?
Paul.
February 12th, 2009 at 1:02
Well these past few days I’ve had this song in my head and this morning I awoke to find…Thor!
Now don’t need to sing…
‘If I had a hammer…
I’d hammer in the morning…
I’d hammer in the evening…
All over this land……’
because I’ave one!
Thanks Thor!
February 12th, 2009 at 7:32
Hi Werner,
I took up a challenge you set – to see if your god would contact me. Unfortunately I have to report no contact – in fact not only did your god not appear, but neither did any of the 10s of 1000s of gods that humanity worshipped. I guess they were busy elsewhere.
Now, I gave you a challenge. To open your mind to the Hindu gods. Did you appear to you? Did you feel Ganesh or Siva?
On a another point, I want to ask you why you place bible quotes in your arguments to atheists? Those words mean a lot to you but *nothing* to me. You could use Harry Potter. You believe these words are from a god – I dont. So, why should I be persuaded by your argument if these words have no value?
For example, I could use the Hindu scriptures for my argument – would that convince you? I doubt it – unless youve heard from Ganesh recently…..
So, from now, please dont use the bible – use your experience instead. Using the bible simply says that youre not listening to me and dont care what I think – which is annoying. And I’m sure thats not your intention.
February 12th, 2009 at 7:53
Hi Eoin.
Indeed – my intention is not to annoy you, nor to ‘not listen’ to you. As i have said in a previous post – i have already found God Almighty – it would be pointless for me to now open my mind to other gods.
I recall Phil said that you should do it for a week, and if nothing happens – go on with your life. So please persevere for the remainder of the week. Find a quiet, peacefull and relaxing place, sit down and talk to God. It will feel stupid at first, but talk to Him and ask Him.
Do you really want to find Him? or do you merely want to ‘give it a go’? Search your heart and find what your true motive is for doing this. That should already give you some direction. My prayer for you is that you will truly ‘want’ to find Him. Eoin I bless you with freedom from Bondage and a heart of flesh in the Name of Jesus. Amen.
February 12th, 2009 at 7:58
Comment on #428.
Isnt’ it interesting that you always here of ‘islamic Extremists’ of ‘Hindu Extremists’ – these groups go and Kill – in the name of religion. Isn’t it interesting how you never hear of Christian Extremists that cause mass histeria and panic, you never hear of Christian Extremists who show up in their ten thousands to teach someone a lesson…. why is that i wonder? Could it be that we, as apposed to islam and hindu groups, serve a God of Love.
interesting…
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship.
February 12th, 2009 at 8:28
Hi Werner
thanks for your post – does that mean you will no longer use bible quotes to back up arguments? I’m sure they are useful in prayer groups – just not with me!! Each bible quote simply says that youre ignoring what I say.
Second – our challenges. Now, I’m having some difficulty here. You say… “i have already found God Almighty – it would be pointless for me to now open my mind to other gods.”
However, you expect me to open my mind to “your” god. Now, why should I take a challenge that you openly refuse to take? Also, how does the Hindu feel now that you blatantly refuse to believe in his god? And you havent even tried to see if Ganesh will speak with you?
February 12th, 2009 at 9:50
Hi Eoin.
I KNOW other ‘gods’ exist – except, i don’t call them gods, but evil spirits. I don’t want to open my mind to evil spirits, or ‘let them in’. Through Jesus I have authority over these spirits, and don’t need to fear them – but should also not make room in my life for them. You seem to know a lot about the hindu religion. what I don’t like about it is that so much of it revolves around sexual acts and pictures, kamasutra etc. If i had to ‘choose’ a religion, it certainly wouldn’t be hinduism. Islam is the other extreme (as per my previous post) and Budhism doesn’t really acknowledge a god at all…so looking at that – Christianity makes sense to me (emotions and relationship with God aside here) and is by far the most ’sensible’ of the lot. Why do I refuse to take such a challenge – i think the initial challenge was for you – who don’t believe at all. A reverse challenge? I believe in those gods, i don’t serve them, but i know they exist…
later…
February 12th, 2009 at 11:07
Werner
No, the most sensible of the lot is NOT to believe.
And by the way, I have a feeling that the Crusades were pretty unpleasant for Muslims in the middle east, so violence has never been limited to Hindus and Muslims.
And even now there are Christian fundamentalists firebombing abortion clinics in the US.
And the pope himself is singularly responsible for thousands, if not millions of deaths by banning catholic followers in the third world from using condoms. If anyone’s an extremist, it’s him. So let’s not pretend that christian extremists do not exist.
And as I said in a previous post, had you been born in India, chances are you’d be a Hindu. If you’d been born in Pakistan, more than likely a Muslim. If you’d been born in Bhutan, you’d probably be a Buddhist. Your choice of faith is simply a result of your geographic location.
February 12th, 2009 at 11:18
Werner has never heard of christian extremists? Has he heard of the wars of religion in France (e.g. the St. Bartholemew Day massacre)? Or of auto-da-fe in Spain? Or the Spanish inquisition? Or the hanging, drawing and quartering (or perhaps burning alive) of Catholics by Protestants and vice-versa depending on which monarch was on the throne in sixteenth-century England? Or of Northern Ireland in the 20th century?
February 12th, 2009 at 13:25
Maybe we should define ‘Christian’. A Christian is a person who FOLLOWS the teachings of Jesus Christ and has a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God the Father. A Christian is not necessarily someone who only says he believes in God, or someone who goes to church on sunday – or someone who fireballs an abortion clinic. These are hipocrites. I agree, a lot has been done – ‘in the name of Christianity’ half of it being an attempt by one ’self-righteous’ person to “Christianize” another, or area, country, world etc. Maybe i should have clearly specified what i mean. Take a fully devoted muslim and a fully devoted Christian and put them side by side. Now insult their god and see what happens. A fully devoted Christian will probably respond in love (i would) where the other party would probably pull out a dagger – because his ‘holy book’ says it’s ok to kill someone if they do that. The point guys – is a matter of behaviour. The bible states that all men were created equal, where in the other religion – i am the infidel who needs to be annihilated…
hope this clears up the comment.
February 12th, 2009 at 13:55
Hi Werner,
Lets try another exercise in “belief” – and this is particularly one for a christian.
- Do you pray to Mary?
- Do you believe in Transubstantiation?
Now, if your a catholic – dogma tells you that you do believe these things. Evangelicals believe this is not the case.
So, Werner which side are you on? From the above, what do you believe and what do you NOT believe?
February 12th, 2009 at 14:12
Werner,
You said that a “A fully devoted Christian will probably respond in love” – not quite sure, eh!
But glad to hear that you said you would yourself!
P.
February 12th, 2009 at 14:46
Hmm…Transubstantiation… I don’t call it that – but do it as part of my faith. Jesus said that we should do it in ‘rememberance’ of Him. So we do it. the bread and wine resembles the body and blood – and don’t transform into it. Mary?? NO – i don’t pray to mary – she was the mother of Jesus and carries no power in this life or the next. she was only the woman whom God chose to bear His Son. See – again – A Christian is not necessarily a Roman Catholic – or a protestant or a methodist or whatever. I am neither of the above. And ‘dogma’ is the correct term you used.
Hi Paul – i obviously cannot account for the reactions of any one person. Each person would react differently. I can give you a list of at least a 100 names of people i know personally that will act in love…depends on the persons commitment and obedience to God.
February 12th, 2009 at 15:46
exactly Werner….
you say..
“NO – i don’t pray to mary – she was the mother of Jesus and carries no power in this life or the next. she was only the woman whom God chose to bear His Son.”
I’m just exploring your disbelief. You dont believe in praying to Mary – other Christians DO! There are some things you DONT believe in. We just dont believe in your god.
February 12th, 2009 at 17:27
Hi Werner,
I was just teasing really – you weren’t sure about ‘fully devoted Christians’.
Anyway, what’s the problem with transubstantiation, apart from good taste (no pun intended)? Is it because it’s nonsense, by any chance?
P.
February 12th, 2009 at 21:12
Hi everyone – wow you have all been busy on here over the past couple of days!! Sorry I haven’t posted anything – work commitments etc…
On the many, and various questions you have posed I would agree with Werners answers.
Hi eoin, thanks for giving my challenge a go (and anyone else who is too)… although, like Werner reminded you, I did say a week… Which would be Monday 16th Feb. So for those who don’t work weekends it gives you a great opportunity to try and find some quite time and space to genuinely seek God and ask him to show you he is real. An important word here is “genuinely” (not that I am saying anyone isn’t doing it genuinely!!). From your point of veiw – if God is real and he loves you and wants the best for you and wants to transform your life for the better – then surely it is worth giving this a go and doing it genuinely.
With regards to the post saying that there have never been any verified supernatural healings… I would have to disagree. I have met a chap who I am sure would be happy to show you his documented healing… He had stomach cancer and had to have most of his stomach removed – but he got worse and was given a few weeks to live – he went to a Christian conference and got prayed for and a miracle happened – the parts of his stomach that were removed grew back – he has the scans to prove it – the doctors can’t explain it.
Found some interesting medical research that has been done on weither prayer helps people recover from mental or physical health problems…
http://www.physorg.com/news93105311.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html
Maybe we could pray for you guys about something in your lives that is difficult for you – that you want breakthrough for..?
Thanks, Phil.
February 12th, 2009 at 22:47
Just forgot to say hi to Alistair too… Again, thanks for accepting to do my challenge genuinely – all the best!!
Also, I realise my last post about maybe asking us to pray about certain things that are difficult in your, or your families lives might be too private to post up here… So maybe you could email them to Werner – as he put his email on an earlier post… (is that ok Werner..?)
Ta, Phil.
February 12th, 2009 at 23:15
“The parts of his stomach that were removed grew back.” (Phil #444). Impressive: but if I were God I’d really show my existence by growing back an amputated arm or leg. Far more convincing.
Mary was “only the woman whom God chose to bear His Son.” (Werner #441) Werner, this statement alone would have been enough to have had you burned at the stake or at least tortured to death in some other unspeakably disgusting manner by CHRISTIANS at any time from the age of Constantine, when Christianity became the state religion until the Reformation (when Protestants started persecuting people who continued praying to the Mother of God). Just think yourself lucky that Christianity doesn’t still have that kind of power. If it did, it would “probably” use it as it did in the past.
February 12th, 2009 at 23:34
Hi johnnyess,
By growing back this mans stomach God wasn’t trying to prove he existed – he was meeting the need of that person – the chap had all his limbs, so he didn’t need anymore!! (hehe!!) I think for this man – having a new stomach was very convincing of Gods love for him!!
Also – in response to your comment to werner saying he would have been burnt at the stake etc by “Christians” in years past for his comment on Mary – the key here is in what you also said:
“when Christianity became the state religion”
RELIGION – this is the key word here… like we have admitted many times on these posts – yes – many wrongs have been committed in the name of religion – yes that includes Christianity – BUT this is religion, not a personal relationship with God. If you have a personal relationship with God and follow his ways you would never do anything like this, as God is loving and forgiving – “love your enemies” “turn the other cheek” etc etc…
Phil.
February 12th, 2009 at 23:43
Hi Johnnyess…
I just said: “God wasn’t trying to prove he existed – he was meeting the need of that person.”
I think for some people – even medical proof of an amputated arm or leg growing back wouldn’t be enough proof as I am pretty sure some people would still think it was a hoax or something.
What is key here, is that God wants to meet with individuals and pour his love on them and meet their needs. I am sure that if you needed a new stomach and God gave you a new one you would believe in him and want to know more about him.
So maybe you could post a prayer request to Werners email – and see if God can meet your need… (remember – you don’t need that nice red ferrari!!).
Thanks, Phil.
February 12th, 2009 at 23:58
My point about state religion is that these people only have the power we give them. When they had that power they abused it. I’m afraid they would (will?) do so again if they had the chance. We must never give that power back to them, even though they whinge and whine and feel that our refusal to obey their wishes amounts to persecution and “marginalisation”. As if Atheists hadn’t been marginalised for 2,000 years! There are idiots in Northern Ireland today demanding a creationist exhibition to counter an exhibition showing the discoveries of Darwin.
As for an arm or leg growing back after amputation, why not, if a stomach can do so? The answer must be that the former is impossible according to the laws of science (otherwise it would have been brought to our attention by the tabloids, like the miraculous faces on the pizzas and slices of toast), the latter, (as you say it has happened) presumably not.
I don’t need a Ferrari, and I don’t need an imaginary being.
February 13th, 2009 at 7:28
Hi Phil
As before I’ll take your challenge as long as you can do the following…..
So for those who don’t work weekends it gives you a great opportunity to try and find some quite time and space to genuinely seek Ganesh and ask him to show you he is real. An important word here is “genuinely” (not that I am saying anyone isn’t doing it genuinely!!). From your point of veiw – if the Hindu gods are real and they love you and want the best for you and want to transform your life for the better – then surely it is worth giving this a go and doing it genuinely……
Now, Phil if you can open your mind to the Hindu gods, I will continue to see if your god will contact me. Do you think you can do this?