Campaign: Atheist Bus
21.10.08 | Ariane |
Atheism, Atheist Bus Campaign, Donation, Donations, Fundraising, Humour, London Buses, Richard Dawkins, Slogan, Thank You
** We reached the total at 1006 BST (GMT+1) on 21st October, just over 10 hours after launch – thank you so much to everyone who contributed! If you haven’t donated yet and would like to then please do – we are now aiming to launch a full advertising campaign across the UK! **
The Atheist Bus Campaign launches today, Tuesday October 21. With your support, we hope to raise £5,500 to run 30 buses across the capital for four weeks with the slogan: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” Donate online now!
Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, is officially supporting the Atheist Bus Campaign, and has generously agreed to match all donations up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we reach the full amount – enough for a much bigger campaign. Our campaign partner, the British Humanist Association, will be administering all donations.
With your help, we can brighten people’s days on the way to work, help raise awareness of atheism in the UK, and hopefully encourage more people to come out as atheists. We can also counter the religious adverts which are currently running on London buses, and help people think for themselves.
As Richard Dawkins says: “This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think – and thinking is anathema to religion.”
856 Responses to “Campaign: Atheist Bus”
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Pages: « 1 … 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 … 18 » Show All
November 10th, 2008 at 11:02
Religion is just ignorance dressed up as elightenment.
November 11th, 2008 at 3:01
I’ve seen similar bus slogans to these in Bath, and the faint blurred logo in the corner looks like Bath & Avon council, unless the London one is very similar.
Was pleasantly surprised to see it anyway.
November 11th, 2008 at 17:53
||It’s worth donating £2 just to say: probably? Probably? PROBABLY? You twits!! At least come out and say there DEFINITELY isn’t!! Oh dear, oh dear! – Nick Whittome||
Of course, never pause to consider how others will respond to your crass and doctrinaire attitude, you shithead. Just leave the PR to others.
_____
November 20th, 2008 at 13:08
“Probably” – so you are not sure then..? Now that’s interesting!!
November 20th, 2008 at 13:55
Phil, why is it interesting?
Do you have a view yourself?
The statment ‘God does not exist’ is as unprovable as saying ‘God does exist’. Being dogmatic and unscientific is for religious people.
November 20th, 2008 at 14:19
Paul N – Yes I do have a view point on this. I wouldn’t call myself religious – but do believe in God. I think I should have commented on the second part of the slogan really…
“Now stop worrying and enjoy your life”
My belief in God is the reason I don’t worry about my life!! Also my belief in God helps me to enjoy my life and give me a purpose and a hope for myself and the people I meet.
In a way, I think this slogan could be really upsetting for some people – I have done some work with bereaved parents who wouldn’t call themselves religious or christian – but the thought that their child is in a better place with God gives them massive comfort – these views have come from themselves not pushed on them by others – it is a way they have found to help deal with the grieving process.
Paul N – Do you know if all the money from this is purely to pay for more advertising around the country..? Or is some going to charity..? It seems a real shame if such a big campaign is not going to be used in a charitable way..?
Phil.
November 20th, 2008 at 14:31
Hi again Paul N and anyone who has supported this by donating money…
I have just checked on the site and to my dismay have found that every penny of the money donated is being spent on doing more bus ads around the country… I think this is a very sad waste of money that could have been used in a much better way. For example: Childrens Hospices, Cancer charities etc etc…
The campaign site says…
“The more adverts we’re able to run, the greater a difference we can make. All donations will be administered by the British Humanist Association and used directly to place ads on buses saying “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life”, along with links to atheist websites.”
“the greater difference we can make” – sadly, none of this money is going to make a “greater difference” for a sick child who needs expensive specialist care or a cancer patient etc etc.
I really hope that all the people who have donated also donated the other night towards the Children in Need appeal – if you didn’t – I think you need to have a look at your priorities in life…
Phil.
November 20th, 2008 at 14:38
Hi Phil,
The thing is, I don’t believe in god, and I don’t believe that, for instance, my father, who died recently is sitting in heaven somewhere.
So I don’t need preachers, vicars, shaman, popes, bishops, rabbis, mullahs, buddhas and all the concomitent rubbish that comes with that mob.
Saying that it helps some people some time is not an argument, just an observation about human nature, not about divine beings.
Either one believes in an omnipotent being or not. You could ask these people the question (although I too would not want to upset bereaved parents) of why took their child away in the first place?
The real issue is we are dominated by religious espousing their views, most of which are patronising and some of which are very dangerous indeed. I, for one, am happy to contribute to putting the other view across for once.
And please don’t tell me that every penny given to churches etc get’s spent on charity – have you seen some of the churches out there – more like palaces.
November 20th, 2008 at 15:01
Phil – you just made my case.
You say -’I really hope that all the people who have donated also donated the other night towards the Children in Need appeal – if you didn’t – I think you need to have a look at your priorities in life…’.
As I said, patronising gumph.
Generosity is not linked umbilically to religious belief. Why don’t you ask the pope to give up a few of his jewels or the Archbishop of Canterbury to pay his salary all to charity?
November 20th, 2008 at 15:13
Hi Paul N
I was not using the bereaved parents comment as an argument about if there is or isn’t a God – just that I thought the statement could be upsetting to some people. I also agree that some religious literature and advertising can be hurtful and dangerous too.
Yes – I have seen some very posh churches and mosques etc and I am sure that a lot of their fundraising goes towards that. BUT not that many religions have a nationwide advertising campaign of this scale. So it seems a shame that this cannot be used as a fundraising tool for needy charities…
You would “probably” get more people donating if they knew that a percentage was going to charity.
“Generosity is not linked umbilically to religious belief” – did I say it was..? No, I didn’t!!
Paul N – You seem very argumentative – all I am doing is posting some comments – which this will be my last – it is a shame I can’t post my comments without getting an online mouthful…
November 20th, 2008 at 15:29
Hi Phil,
This is what makes me argumentative …
‘I have just checked on the site and to my dismay have found that every penny of the money donated is being spent on doing more bus ads around the country… I think this is a very sad waste of money that could have been used in a much better way. For example: Childrens Hospices, Cancer charities etc etc…‘
This campaign is to try to make clear that there plenty of people out here who do not believe in god(s). It has nothing to do with what you mention above. I merely pointed out that to try and say so is patronising and very annoying.
Please read through the older posts, and you will find that I try to respond in as reasonable way as I can, in contrast to many posts (of both persuasions, by the way).
November 20th, 2008 at 17:44
Phil, when I donated money, I presumed it was going towards atheist adverts. I didn’t give my money to the atheist bus campaign so that it would be giving to a completely unrelated cause that the campaigners had decided! I think it would be a bit cheeky if my money was used for anything other than the cause for which I intended it to be used!
If I want to donate to Cancer research, then I’ll donate to Cancer research! It’s my prerogative! Anyway, why aren’t you giving Christians hassle over their adverts filling peoples minds with the vision of a vengeful Sky Fairy???
As it happens I’m a member of two charities that I pay monthly donations to… And I’m an atheist, go figure! So stop being so bloody condescending by telling me that a cause which I think is very important is a “sad waste of money”. Get off my back!
November 20th, 2008 at 17:47
If a percentage of donations were given to charity then people would complain that this was a cynical move exploiting charities for political reasons. They would be right too.
I am not an atheist but I have seen several wearing poppies, know several who gave to children in need. The reason donations here have dried up is that they’ve had their say and will now get on with doing other things with their money. I think the woman promoting Child’s Play at my workplace is an atheist for that matter.
November 22nd, 2008 at 4:10
I’m a convinced & passionate atheist who just loves that litotic ‘probably’ – really makes it zing! Sorely puzzled over the fuss. The playfully courteous usage, though, would be a nicety better highlighted by adopting the rewording suggested earlier – Comment#54 above – the simple addition of a pluralising ’s’ packing a far heftier punch.
_____
January 8th, 2009 at 16:24
Congrats, the bus has made it to today’s biggest Polish newspaper! http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,6132166,_Boga_raczej_nie_ma____niecodzienna_akcja_brytyjskich.html?nltxx=856991&nltdt=2009-01-08-08-12
Now please, can we have one of these in Poland? While in the UK atheists are at least accepted, in Poland if you say that you don’t believe in god people look at you as if you had just said that Pope JPII had eaten a steady diet of raw baby every morning…
January 27th, 2009 at 21:25
I am a true and committed athiest and felt enlighted to see your poster on the tube. I finally felt that people are standing up for Athiesm. It is just as much as important as any other belief and although we are perhaps in the minority, it doesn’t mean our voice our opinions should be heard.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:14
Hey guys – great way to get everyone talking about God. Well Done! Haven’t seen any buses up north though..?
February 3rd, 2009 at 12:48
Thank you Abba Father, Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit for every person who reads or adds comments to this website. Thank you Abba Father for the web host, the moderator and the person who engineered this website.
Abba Father, in the Name of Messiah Yeshua, I bless every person, member, moderator and every reader of this website with a double blessing of being born again. Abba Father I bless them with Health, prosperity and peace. Abba Father, I ask your forgiveness for every person, for they know not what they are doing. In the name of Messiah Yeshua, I come against every evil spirit that is holding these people in bondage, confusing them and blinding them to your truth. I ask now Abba Father that you remove from every individual these spirits and to send these spirits where You want them.
Abba Father, I Bind every person to Your Perfect will. I bind Every person’s mind to the mind of Christ, Messiah Yeshua and I Bind every person’s raggedy emotions to the healing balance of the Holy Spirit. I pray this in the mighty name of Messiah Yeshua.
Abba Father, I now loose from them the works of Satan that are causing hatred, confusion and feelings of despair, in the name of Messiah Yeshua. I loose from them wrong thoughts and feeling about Your provision or Your character or who You are, in the name of Messiah Yeshua. Abba Father I now further loose from them the confusion about You and your people that they think is the truth in the name of Messiah Yeshua.
Almighty Abba Father, you are capable of doing all things, shattering strongholds and making people see. Abba Father I ask, in the name of Messiah Yeshua, that You will fill every person with Your Holy Spirit, give them a Heart of Flesh and reveal Yourself, Your Everlasting Love, Your never ending Mercy and THE TRUTH about who you are to them.
Abba Father I pray for TRUTH, YOUR TRUTH to fill their hearts and minds in the name of Messiah Yeshua.
I Thank you Abba Father for what you are going to do. I thank you for Hearing the pleas of Your people. I thank You that You do not want anyone to get lost but to get saved.
Thank You Abba Father, Messiah Yeshua and Holy Spirit for your faithfulness.
In Messiah Yeshua name.
AMEN.
February 3rd, 2009 at 20:08
Comment # 368 Werner Rossouw – Another nutter. Or is it one of the old nutters in disguise? Sounds familiar – did he call himself matthew or samir? Thought of looking back to find out, but was afraid of losing the will to live. And I love life – if only these idiots would leave us alone.
February 3rd, 2009 at 20:28
Hmm, can anyone tell Me what the rules are for capital letters in preaching posts? If They are going to use such rules, They should at least be consistent.
On a lighter note, I saw three of ‘our’ buses pass by one after the after the other day. Two 38’s and one 73 on the Essex Road in London.
Put a smile on my face.
P
February 3rd, 2009 at 21:09
Paul N, you wait for 1 bus and 3 come at once!! Were they all late then..? hehe!!
February 5th, 2009 at 11:37
@368:
When you say “Abba Father”, do you mean Benny or Bjorn? Shouldn’t it be “Fathers”, so as not to leave one out?
February 5th, 2009 at 21:56
Hi Phil,
Yeah – thought that myself!
But now I’m seeing them all the time.
I have to stop myself cheering (it’s not that I’m so anti-religion, it’s just nice that there is a another, rational, way of looking at the world).
Cheers all round,
P
February 6th, 2009 at 9:45
# 372
The reason for “Abba Father” is so that there is no cofusion about who we are talking about. We mean the One and True God the Father.
As for Benny or Bjorn…Don’t mock someting you don’t understand. We don’t worship man or believe in man. We don’t see those as fathers.
The message behind Christ is not one of eternal damnation and a ‘lake of fire’.(although this is the reality) The message is about love, forgiveness, grace and mercy. My Prayer for you is that this Truth will resound in your mind and heart.
Let me ask you a question – and i am humouring your point of view here – if there was a 50% chance that God was real, including heaven and hell and a life after this one – wouldn’t you rather want to go to heaven? Wouldn’t you rather want to spend eternity in peace, in a place without suffering?
February 6th, 2009 at 9:58
Werner,
Its great that you came to the site – thats what this is about getting you to explain why you belief what you claim.
Can I ask you…..do you believe in the Hindu gods? If not, can you explain why you dont believe?
Thanks very much.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:13
Hi Werner,
People say their religion is all about love and forgiveness, but usually, you only have to question their beliefs and out comes the hell fire and damnation – you couldn’t resist it.
With regards to your asking to make a rational decision about an irrational belief – I thought it was all about faith.
P.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:30
Indeed, a lot of Christians feel they need to ‘warn’ people about the eternal damnation in order to ‘get them saved’. ‘put the fear of God in them’. Although this works with some people, it’s not what one is supposed to do. lead by example. I can tell you all about the truth of God and you can shrug it off and go on with your life. When you ‘experience’ truth however – that is a different ball game, emotions are involved and you start asking the question….what if?
it is absolutely about faith. Faith in something other than yourself. Believing ‘only’ in yourself is arrogance and self glorification. you cannot possibly do all things in your own power.
Irrational belief is again your point of view – ‘let’s play pretend’ – Where would you want to go – heaven or hell…
February 6th, 2009 at 10:51
Just another note on the ‘It’s all about Faith’ comment.
You were given free will. so in a way – you can choose to go to heaven. Faith alone does not get you into Heaven. You are saved through Grace and Faith. If you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that God is real, Christ died for your sins and the Holy Spirit leads you day by day – then you are saved!! it’s as simple as that. When you accept the truth and make it your own, and surrender to God – His spirit start working in you, and you can’t help but grow in Him. His Grace and your faith saves you.
February 6th, 2009 at 11:07
Yeah, don’t take the piss out of Abba – I know their later hits were a bit lame, but Super Trouper was a great song.
#374
There’s a simple answer to your question. If there is a 50% chance of god existing, and heaven is full of moronic, self-righteous “believers”, then please point me in the direction of the down escalator.
Seriously, if god is going to damn people for eternity simply because they don’t believe he exists, why is he worthy of worship? That’s vanity of the highest order, and not as far as I can see, worthy of any kind of adulation. It’s just pathetic.
February 6th, 2009 at 11:43
#378
Red Citrus – your emotions are coming into play and distorting your answer. nevermind who you perceive to be in heaven.
take away all you ever believed in, all your emotions, thoughts and feelings about EVERYTHING in life. now answer the question again – suffering or peace and happiness….
February 6th, 2009 at 12:06
#374 But its not 50% is it? If one of the many other gods is “true” then Werner is in just as much trouble as we are.
February 6th, 2009 at 12:58
Why is God worthy of Worship?
Let’s explore that…and a bit more.
Look at the seasons – like clockwork they come and go, and nature responds. Animals migrate, shed coats, go into hibernation, start gathering, start mating – all pre-programmed to do what their instincts tell them to.
Look up at night. Now go to the NASA website and look at the photo’s that the Hubble space telescope took. Why would there be so many stars? Why would there be other galaxies. Look at how small we are in comparison.
How did we get to where we are today as humans – did our forefathers crawl out of some swamp slime and ‘ta-da’ they could walk and talk a couple million years later? How do you explain the human body – so complex and perfect! In all our ‘wisdom’ we would never be able to create something even remotely similar. Not to even mention the diversity. Not one human looks the same or has the same fingerprint. All animals are unique. A supercomputer would have difficulty with that. And on that note – your brain can calculate things faster than a super computer.
Look at the oceans of the world and how they react to the moon. The sheer magnitude of it and the diversity it contains. The depth of it.
Put your arrogance aside for just a moment and just think about it. How can it all be possible? With all of the human interference – how is it possible that it all still ‘works’.
Heard of people being ‘supernaturally’ healed? Healed of blindness, physical disability etc. I have seen it with my own eyes. And even today – PEOPLE ARE BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD. Explain that. What about Angels and demons. They are real. Explain that.
The fact is our ‘science’ can only explain how it works – and have theories about how it is all possible. As an atheist you don’t believe in anyting – correct? so how is the above possible?
Take a good hard look around you and really think about the above – I mean TRULY think about it – THAT is but one of the reasons why God is worthy of worship.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:43
Werner
There is no god. Any sane person can see that. To believe, as you appear to, at best requires the complete subjugation of your critical faculties and at worst suggests a delusion that is evidence of a serious psychological condition.
The fear of losing your comfort blanket is so evident in your comments that it is pointless us “debating” with you. You are prepared to live your life in denial of all the evidence around you because you of scared of simply being one man, alive on one planet, at one point in time. A man who when he dies will probably be forgotten by all but those closest to them.
This is the human condition so make the most of THIS life as you are not getting another one.
February 8th, 2009 at 17:55
Werner,
You see, this is the problem…you make the most ridiculous statements in support of your belief, and are not prepared to be challenged when someone else points out obvious flaws in your argument.
You use the fact that the human body is “so complex and perfect!”. This statement is so wrong, it’s idiotic. If it’s perfect, why do we have a superfluous appendix? Why is the human reproductive system so unsuited for birth? Why are we so susceptable to disease? If you accept that god created the earth and all the creatures on it, do you also accept that he created the Ebola virus? Aids? Parkinson’s disease? Alzheimer’s? Cholera? Cancer?
If god is the creator of man, he didn’t do a very good job, did he? And if god created man, who created god?
The rest of your argument descends into pure lunacy. Faith raising people from the dead? Curing physical disability? Angels and demons?
Werner, you really are an idiot. Please present us with independently verifiable evidence that any of these things happened.
Maybe then we’ll listen to you.
February 8th, 2009 at 21:50
Hi Werner,
Only just seen the last posts and RedCitrus has pretty much said what I would say anyway (although in a somewhat more robust manner!!).
But I had to mention that you are unable to stop contradicting yourself … in a previous post you do it within two sentences …
Quote: “You were given free will. so in a way – you can choose to go to heaven. Faith alone does not get you into Heaven. You are saved through Grace and Faith. If you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that God is real, Christ died for your sins and the Holy Spirit leads you day by day – then you are saved!!”
How can I choose to believe? How exactly is that possible. I could pretend to believe, but that’s not what you mean, I’m sure.
The thing is, I was brought up in a religious atmosphere – attended Sunday school and sang in the choir up to the age of about thirteen. Uptil then, I did not ‘choose’ to believe, I just assumed that what my parents, teachers and local vicar told me was true, because they were adults.
But once I started thinking for myself it became increasingly difficult to continue believing – and not because of a love science as you might imagine – but because of things like the famine in Ethiopa. I just could not accept that a benevolent and benign god could treat these people so badly for no reason at all. And you only have to read the bible with a free mind to realise that your god is not benign anyway – always a-smiting and a-burning and a-killing people, mainly for not believing in him.
So I ask you, how can you believe in such a monstrous, jealous, vain entity as the god described in the bible – he has nothing to do with love, grace or the other things you attribute to him?
I do have a lot of time for some of the things Jesus is purported to have said, though (do unto others, turn the other cheek etc) but I just don’t need to invest supernatural powers in him to agree with them.
Paul N.
One last thing – according to you, I could murder a few people, rape a few people, steal from a few people – but as long as I believe and confess, I’m in heaven – right? Maybe hell is the place to be, after all!
February 9th, 2009 at 10:17
Hi Paul…and yes Redcitrus…and Graham Davis.
Blessings to all three of you.
First of all – i cannot explain, nor do i choose to investigate, why we have famine, plaque, illness etc. On the one hand i think it could be attributed to the way we live, what we eat etc. The ’system’ of money in the world. the rich get richer …..
anyway – just one comments to God’s actions in the Bible. First of all it must be noted that all of that didn’t happen due to the Israelites not believing in God, but because of disobedience, worshipping other gods etc. Secondly – it was the old testament. God made a new covenant with the world when He sent His son to die on the cross. This new covenant allows us to enter into God’s kingdom through His son. It is now a message of Love and Grace.
as for free wil – and the whole killing and raping thing. First – let us say that you did all these things last week – and today you ask for forgiveness – God will forgive – as long as there is repentance also. Here is someting interesting – Moses was a murderer and David was an adulterer, but still God chose them to carry on with his works. You see, when you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart – you will not be capable of these things – the Holy spirit will prevent it. and pretending to believe…common…your cheating yourself.
Bottom Line – if you really are searching for God, and i mean you really want to find HIm, you will. ‘Draw close to me and I will draw close to you” Seeing is not believing, Believing is seeing.
Have a look at the following website: http://www.tangle.com/search?page=1&search_text=healed&search_type=video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMNLgJwYnu8
Please note – I don’t personally endorse anyone of these people – it’s just interesting. Also – do a Google search on ‘The lazarus Phenomenon”
I have a few pages in hard copy – articles I mean – that I will share – as soon as I figure out how.
and please don’t call me an idiot. I could call you an idiot for not believing – but I don’t – so please return the favour.
Blessings till next time.
February 9th, 2009 at 14:09
Let me take this time (while my previous comment is being moderated) to share with you my personal testimony, and how I have experienced God’s saving grace first hand.
OK, so I also grew up in a Christian home. Went to Sunday school and the works. All through my life I had the ‘God will judge you and send you to Hell’ in my face. It was only till later in life – in my mid 20’s that I realized what was going on in my life. My marriage was failing, my career was in a mess and in general – life sucked. My wife and I decided to join a local church and made a positive decision to allow God to work in our lives. To ‘throw away’ the old and allow Him to shape us into something new. Ever since our lives have been changed dramatically. Jesus said “Joh 10:10 A thief comes only to rob, kill, and destroy. I came so that everyone would have life, and have it in its fullest”
I HAVE EXPERIENCED LIFE IN ITS FULLEST. I wake up every morning with an amazing joy in me – something I cannot explain. It’s just there. NOTHING can ‘rock my world’ – no amount of stress, financial burden, deadline or anything else can make me tremble. And it’s this peace inside me that I wish all other people could feel. Looking back at the sometimes turbulent life that I lead – I am so thankful that God has intervened when I asked Him to. Life now – is a joy. Sure I still struggle with everyday life – but it doesn’t get me under anymore. I have an inner peace when I am faced with big decisions. A Peace from God. It’s just awesome!
Also need to point out that anyone (Christian or not) that says he is without sin – I believe Redcitrus referred to them as ‘self righteous idiots’ – are in fact quite deluded. Their hearts are in the right place but they are going about it all wrong. When I look inside myself I see just how dirty I am – but then I look at Jesus and he accepts me as I am. And he removes my sins as far away from me as the east is from the west. I am no better than any one person on this earth – no man is greater than another – and I don’t pretend to be either. I do not judge: “For by the same measure that you judge, you yourself will be judged” so please don’t see me here as trying to ‘convince’ you that Christians are better than Atheists. I am not here to convince you that God is real. That is not my job – that is what the Holy Spirit will do for you – I am merely a messenger with some good news…. wrossouw {at} hotmail(.)com
I am no intellectual – by human standards anyway – but I have a burning passion inside me to share with someone. And I wish, oh how I wish, you could feel what I feel.
As an atheist you believe in nothing – correct. So what about creation? What came first – the egg or the chicken? How can ‘everything’ happen when there is nothing. For there to be a beginning, there must have been nothing before the beginning… Evolution and the ‘big bang theory’ cannot be proven. For the big bang to have happened there were various gasses, pieces of rock etc that were ‘moulded together’ and in the “random chaos” – earth appeared…. Where did the Gas come from, or the rocks, or the magnetic forces that ‘held them together’…. For you to believe that there is no God or a Creator you are saying that everything happened from nothing… all of the millions of stars and the whole universe just ‘happened’…maybe you believe that there was a creator – you just don’t know who he is. What do you believe will happen to YOU when you die? Random Chaos, evolution – the ‘great scientists’ can’t prove it and that leaves the rest of the world in a bit of a dilemma….. so how DID it all begin?
Blessings to each person who reads this.
February 9th, 2009 at 14:22
Werner,
Your “first hand” experience was nothing but rhetoric. You wrote a lot but didn’t actually say anything.
As regards to how it all started… I have no idea. I’m a web developer not a scientist but I do find it VERY hard to believe some mystical bearded sky fairy waved his hands around and so it was.
February 9th, 2009 at 14:25
Oh, regards to evolution. It’s fact. It’s proven.
February 9th, 2009 at 14:33
Hi Werner
I’m pleased for you that your belief in god has made you happy, don’t get me wrong. Your god has obviously made himself known to you and convinced you of his existence.
Why won’t he do the same for me, and every other atheist on this planet? I’d be happy to believe in god, ghosts, fairies and aliens if I was presented with concrete evidence that these things exist. I’m still waiting, and until that day comes, I just can’t believe. It’s not a matter of personal choice.
Any sufficiently intelligent being will eventually come to ask “why am I here?”. God is no different – if we accept that god created man, then who created god? It’s a paradox which you seem unable to answer. Don’t tell us that god has always existed, because we can say the same about space and time, which renders your argument obsolete.
I believe that we exist because of a series of random events occurred over billions of years which happened to lead to life on this planet. We are simply the result of a series of cosmic mistakes. This makes the beauty and wonder of the natural world even more extraordinary – there’s no need to bring some supernatural creator into the equation.
As the product of a random universe, that we are here at all is a triumph – to claim that we’re the product of an all-powerful god is to demean our existence.
February 9th, 2009 at 14:41
Hi Werner,
The argument that because we don’t how the universe was created we should believe in an arbitrary god is misquided. A previous poster (to which you haven’t responded, I note) asked why this didn’t lead you to believe in the Hindu gods – who also, it seems, created the universe. The answer is simple. You, like me, were indoctrinated the adults around us into their belief system.
Paul N.
PS Eggs came before chickens, since reptiles came before birds.
February 9th, 2009 at 16:33
RedCitrus, you said: “We are simply the result of a series of cosmic mistakes.”
That makes me sad… RedCitrus, you are not the result of a mistake – God created you! He designed you even before you were born. He thinks you are amazing. He loves you like his own son and longs for you to accept him.
RedCitrus, you said: “Why won’t he do the same for me, and every other atheist on this planet? I’d be happy to believe in god, ghosts, fairies and aliens if I was presented with concrete evidence that these things exist. I’m still waiting, and until that day comes, I just can’t believe. It’s not a matter of personal choice.”
You may never get 100% scientific on paper proof that God exists – but what I would love you to do is to ask God to show you he is real. Over the next week or so each day try to remember to say to God (either in your head or out loud) to show himself to you in some way so that you can believe he exists. D It would be great if you could do this and see what happens… Maybe go along to a church or read the bible or go for a walk in the countryside or park and ask God to show you he is real.
I hope you don’t feel I am preaching at you – or ramming God down your throat – I just want you to realise that God is real and he loves you and wants you to know him too…
If anyone else is reading this too – maybe you could do the above as well – and see what happens!! Surely it’s worth a try – if nothing happens – carry on as you are – if something does happen – great!!
Thanks, Phil.
February 9th, 2009 at 17:12
Werner,
I think you are seeing “complexity” ie the human body is perfect…. and then declaring it as “designed”.
This is a problem for the rest of us. Complexity does *not* equal the existance of a designer. Your question where does everything come from is great – but just because something is complex doesnt mean it had a Designer.
Phil,
I appreciate your theme – you obviously experience a profound “love” from some being and you really want us to experience it too.
I think “falling in love” a good analogy for belief in any ‘god’. When youre in love, you tend to see things differently ie it is difficult to be objective. I’m sure you feel there is a being that loves you – however we do *not* experience this any require evidence. And no, the complexity of nature is *not* evidence of any ‘god’. Your feeling is incredibly strong – however we are not “in love” with your god and will be objective.
Its rather like parents looking at their children in the school play. As they love those kids, they think they are fantastic – however if they aint my kids, I’ll let them know if the acting is crap…..
February 9th, 2009 at 17:53
eoin, you said: “When you’re in love, you tend to see things differently ie it is difficult to be objective.”
I didn’t actually say I was “in love” with God. Most people don’t fall in love with someone straight away. They get to know them first, find out what they are like and during this process either fall in love or don’t. So actually it is more about the things I have seen or experienced of God as I have found out about him that help me to be objective. I think this is why the Alpha Course has been so good. As this lets you find out who God is etc and then lets you make your own mind up either way.
eoin – are you going to take up my little challenge about asking God to show you he is real as discussed in my last post..?
February 9th, 2009 at 18:06
Hi Phil,
No, you didnt say you were “in love” – that was my observation from the language you used. I dont believe you are, or can be objective – because of religion.
I used to belong to a church – it worked along similar lines to alpha. I did retreats, the works. People would say things like “open your mind to jesus” – and I found peoples need for evidence reduced depending on their self-esteem or need for structure/purpose. I’m sure if I did feel pretty low one day and closed my eyes – I’m sure I’d hear voices eventually. I’m sure my mind could make those voices convince me I was ‘loved’.
I’ll have a go with your challenge this week – and see if a god contacts me. However, which god should I expect? Do you hear from any of the hindu, greek, roman, mayan gods? And if you dont, does that mean you dont believe in them?
February 9th, 2009 at 18:13
I shall also take up your challenge Phil. I shall genuinely spend this week try and find your god and report back on Friday. I will try my very best to be open minded on this.
February 9th, 2009 at 18:33
wonder if the moderator will allow this one…
Thank you Phil. i want to confirm your message and ‘challenge’ to everybody, as it is the same i had on my mind the last 2 days.
you see guys – that’s just it. God said: “Draw close to me and I will draw close to you” – also the obvious ’seek and you will find, ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be opened’. this is the character of God. you need to actively open yourself up to Him. He is not just going to ‘pop’ into your living room one day (although He could do that too) instead he gently speaks to you through other people, your thoughts and your heart.
i would like to urge everybody also – take up phil’s challenge – ASK GOD to show you that he is real and he will
February 9th, 2009 at 18:42
Hi eoin, thanks for the comment back to me. Yes, I agree, that religion often stops people being objective and can be used wrongly to force thoughts and beliefs onto people.
BUT… the great thing about God is that knowing him doesn’t have to be religious at all!!
There are true factual stories of people in other countries who have never heard about God where no missionary has ever been etc coming to believe in God. There are also stories of people who have never set foot in a church or talked to a Christian etc coming to a belief in God..? Why..? Because God has show himself to them or spoken to them – so they believe.
Also, God isn’t a crutch for the week minded or those with a tough life or feeling low etc… (although, he is there for people at these times) My life so far has been pretty good actually – a few ups and downs like most people – but I don’t need to believe in God so I can have him as a crutch for when I am down.
I just know in my heart that God is real – and that he loves me and wants the best for my life and yours!! Can I prove it scientifically – no!! But that doesn’t mean he isn’t real…
Thanks for accepting the challenge!! There is only one God the creator of all. Ask him to show you he is real… All the best, Phil.
February 9th, 2009 at 19:12
Why doesn’t Phil open himself up to the Hindu gods?
February 9th, 2009 at 20:40
Hi all,
Phil & Werner – why won’t either of you respond to the challenge presented regarding the Hindu gods?
It’s not good enough just to say – ‘I don’t know’ to the difficult questions. If you can’t justify why belief in one god is not equivalent to belief in any or all gods, your statements sound very hollow indeed.
Seeing that couple of people have taken up your challenge – why don’t you have a go at this challenge?
I attribute your belief in your particular god to your being indoctrinated, however gently. A clear example of this is the portrayal (almost universally) of Jesus as a western European – a Roman, I would say. Another example of this is that god is always portrayed as a man – which has more to with the patriarchal societies than anything else.
If only you could clear your mind and see religion for what it is – a human construct for controlling other humans, and, at least in times past, a method of trying to understand the complexities of the universe that you have previously described.
And lastly, What does ‘believing in nothing’ mean?
I believe in many things, but none of them are supernatural. For example, I believe that the earth is a (somewhat misshapen) sphere and the earth is billions of years old. For a hell of a long time, your church (the church of Jesus, that is) burnt people at the stake for such views. If you were alive then, you might be lighting the match yourself. Don’t take that as an insult – I’m claiming that it would be a consequence of blind doctrinal faith.
Paul.