Campaign: Atheist Bus
21.10.08 | Ariane |
Atheism, Atheist Bus Campaign, Donation, Donations, Fundraising, Humour, London Buses, Richard Dawkins, Slogan, Thank You
** We reached the total at 1006 BST (GMT+1) on 21st October, just over 10 hours after launch – thank you so much to everyone who contributed! If you haven’t donated yet and would like to then please do – we are now aiming to launch a full advertising campaign across the UK! **
The Atheist Bus Campaign launches today, Tuesday October 21. With your support, we hope to raise £5,500 to run 30 buses across the capital for four weeks with the slogan: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” Donate online now!
Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, is officially supporting the Atheist Bus Campaign, and has generously agreed to match all donations up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we reach the full amount – enough for a much bigger campaign. Our campaign partner, the British Humanist Association, will be administering all donations.
With your help, we can brighten people’s days on the way to work, help raise awareness of atheism in the UK, and hopefully encourage more people to come out as atheists. We can also counter the religious adverts which are currently running on London buses, and help people think for themselves.
As Richard Dawkins says: “This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think – and thinking is anathema to religion.”
856 Responses to “Campaign: Atheist Bus”
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April 3rd, 2009 at 9:29
Eoin.
Sorry. But i cannot. There is too much at stake. I don’t want to get into a debate with Phil and Debbie on this topic. We are here for YOU, and not to debate ‘denominations’ with each other.
A ritual can also be described as a ‘ceremony, habit, formal procedure or custom’.
Speaking in tongues, prophecying, healing etc are none of the above. They cannot be put in a box. These things happen as random acts that occur as and when God intends…
I have never said that any gift ‘overrides’ anyone elses beliefs. That is cause for argument. Individuals i know have received these gifts and use them as God intends, not to prove anyting or override anyone.
later
April 3rd, 2009 at 9:51
hey werner,
Thats really interesting. I’m here because of what I believe we need to define what is ‘true’. If youre interested in me learning about healing, tongues etc – why would you not want to educate a catholic? Your logic doesnt work here. If these ideas are good for a atheist why not for a catholic? If Phil or Debbie dont believe in what you believe – then surely that is just as important as talking to a non-believer?
Also if you believe a catholic is wrong to pray to mary – why not say so? You cant be promoting your belief system to me and not to a catholic – it simply does not make sence. If the catholic is let off from your ideas – why cant I be too?
Rituals. I think youre simply wrong here. See below. Tongues and Healing is consistantly defined under rituals. And particularly as pentecostal rituals.
Glossolalia is defined in the recent authoritative Encyclopedia of Religion as a practice of “nonordinary speech behavior that is institutionalized as a religious RITUAL in numerous Western and non-Western religious communities.”
April 3rd, 2009 at 10:47
hey werner,
Research (very old, but relevant) on rituals….
“Glossolalia is seen as **ritual behaviour** which aims, first, to amalgamate the sounds of crying and laughing, which are symbols of hurt and joy in life, and, second, it thereby points to conditions of existence, that is, to death and birth in life.”
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1385863
April 3rd, 2009 at 12:25
Eoin.
Well i suppose if research was done on the subject…
it’s not about what Phil and Debby believe, it’s about what the catholic church is doing to the world. I’m not talking about the individuals, but the ‘powers that be’.
Let’s go…
NOWHERE in the bible does it say that a person should pray to mary, or to the saints. It does not say that Mary is holy. It does not say that the saints are holy. It also says: “You shall not have any craven image…” look at their buildings. ‘adorned’ with images. Their ‘crucifix’ is a symbol of Jesus’ death – and that’s the image they worship. Jesus has risen and is alive.
The roman catholic church ‘decided’ what to put in the bible and left out the rest – locked it in some room in the vatican and that’s that for the rest of the world. What are they hiding? The roman calendar speaks about 25 December as Jesus’ ‘birthday’ – this is not accurate according to the hebrew calendar it should be closer to October. Why is the catholic church so wealthy? The pope is the ‘SELF PROFESSED’ representative of God on earth. NOT chosen by God. I should walk and be an ‘image of Christ’ not adore some guy who ‘men’ chose to be the next pope.
and here comes the “conspiracy theory” part – I have reason to believe that the Catholic Church, The Freemasons, The Iluminati, Islam and the Satanists are all part of the same organisation, right at the top. (specifically the pope) Causing mass hysteria ‘under a nice face’ and becoming wealthy with instigating war against nations and trying to destroy Israel.
Now you know….
April 3rd, 2009 at 12:30
Werner, I was with you for most of that but then you lost it at the end…
“I have reason to believe that the Catholic Church, The Freemasons, The Iluminati, Islam and the Satanists are all part of the same organisation, right at the top.”
Really? What leads you to believe that?
April 3rd, 2009 at 14:01
hey werner,
Just to address your points in reverse…
As you know, i’m consistantly going on about evidence. And i’m very glad you have discussed your theory. However, just as with religion, politics, economics and everything else – we need evidence. Where is the evidence of this conspiracy?
You began the post with “NOWHERE in the bible does it say that a……” Well, so what? You remember my point – who says that ‘faith’ has to depend only on biblical text? My argument here is that your different churches debate over how to treat a set of writings. Where is your proof that your god demands you *only* obey these texts? Or do you believe the bible proves itself??!
As I said before, I see protestants and catholics debating rather like the believers at stonehenge or the mayan civilisations. I’m sure they had disagreements over what their gods wanted. Your burden is to prove youre right. How do you know?
have a great weekend.
April 3rd, 2009 at 20:01
Hi Guys,
Been reading Werner’s and Eoin’s discussion with interest.
One point Werner – and this is curiosity, not a comment on what you wrote – you say: – “NOWHERE in the bible does it say that a person should pray to mary, or to the saints..
I assume you mean the New Testament, for obvious reasons. Can I ask what ‘version’ of the New Testament do you ascribe to? Is it *very* different to others?
Paul.
PS. I thought the Illuminati were just a figment of Dan Brown’s imagination, no?
April 6th, 2009 at 8:46
Eoin.
A CHRISTIAN is bound by the Bible and the truth it contains. If a ‘catholic’ for example does not read the bible, and does things “according to rituals’ as not described in the bible, then, in my humblest of opinions, he is not a Christian or a follower of Christ, but wrapped up in some ‘other’ dogma.
Paul – as far as my knowledge goes, it doesn’t matter which version of the Bible you look at, old or new testament, there is no mention of praying to Mary or the saints. Then i may as well pray to the archbishop of uganda. My point is that the word of God has been crucified (excuse the pun) by ‘denominations’ and as such, ‘new’ belief systems have emerged. One’s that are not true to the original…
As for the Iluminati – lot’s of theory’s about em. Dan Brown is certainly not the first person to write about them, and won’t be the last. The influence of the iluminati have been discussed in many churches for decades…
April 6th, 2009 at 13:06
hey werner,
But this is the point….
“then, in my humblest of opinions, he is not a Christian or a follower of Christ, but wrapped up in some ‘other’ dogma.”
Exactly. Its your opinion that the bible should be used to the letter. Where did you get this information from? From your parents – your pastor? Even within the protestant churches there are disagreements – and even within different individuals in a single church we find different ‘ideas’ of the Christian ‘God’. I can remember a group at university calling the christian god as ‘Her’ and by ‘Mother’. I’m sure you may disagree?
The problem is that you all claim youre right. But how should we judge? And if we cant find that out – how do we know which religion is right? Or do we simply follow what our parents or neighbours do?
April 6th, 2009 at 15:49
Eoin.
Exactly – The Bible must be followed to the letter. After reading it myself I forged this opinion.
I am of the opinion, along with a couple thousand others, that if it does not say clearly in the Bible that it is a metaphor or story, that it must be followed.
If Catholics believe, as I do, that The Bible is the word of God, and inspired by Him, then why don’t they follow it’s guidelines? Why do they choose to only believe what they like? How can they disregard what doesn’t ‘apply to them’?
The spiritual side of it then (which i don’t expect you’d understand or want to hear about) is that each individual reader SHOULD ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the real message behind scripture to him/her. Thus, one part of scripture could have a slightly different meaning to me, due to what I am going through in my life, than to someone else. Nowadays, people just ‘read’ ‘the good book’ to satisfy something inside. They don’t take the message and run with it. They add ‘little tales’ and take away key words that completely distort the intended message.
Laters.
April 7th, 2009 at 8:33
Hey Werner,
I understand your point – however youre missing my point… you say:
“After reading it myself I forged this *opinion*.
I am of the *opinion*, along with a couple thousand others, that if it does not say clearly in the Bible that it is a metaphor or story, that it must be followed.”
I’ve highlighted the word OPINION. Now, where does your opinion get its authority from? You claim catholics should read your ancient text as you do – but why? How do you know this is what your god has intended? Maybe your god is quite happy for human writers to produce a book but is not concerned how we read it?
How do you know your view of the bible is correct and where does your authority come from?
This is really really important. Just as you claim I need to believe in a supernatural being – you also claim other christians need to read your ancient texts as you do. But we disagree. Why should we change our minds?
At the heart of this is what we believe is “true”. And how we go about determining that. You believe it is “true” that we should read the bible word for word as law. But why? Where did you get this idea from…..the bible?
April 7th, 2009 at 12:01
Hey Werner
Another comment…
“The spiritual side of it then (which i don’t expect you’d understand or want to hear about) is that each individual reader SHOULD ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the real message behind scripture to him/her. Thus, one part of scripture could have a slightly different meaning to me, due to what I am going through in my life, than to someone else.”
I definitely do want to hear about this – its really interesting. This presents us with a problem – what if the ‘holy spirit’ tells a catholic or protestant from a different church than you that your interpretation of the bible is wrong? In fact, lets go further, what if it tells the believer that your view of the bible is immoral and should be stopped? What do we do?
Who has the right knowledge from the “spirit”? I go back to my foundation question – how do we determine what is “true”?
April 8th, 2009 at 5:08
Eoin
# 811: I believe, just as God inspired people to write the books of the Bible in ancient times, He still today inspires and reveals the hidden messages in His word. The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is incredibly cohesive. Everything talks to everything else. Having been written over a period of approx 2000 years this is almost impossible. I read the Bible, and what i read speaks to my Spirit. If something feels right than it feels right. Once again – discernment comes in. Authority??? My Authority comes from Christ.
#812: They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I say truth is in the mind of the reader.
You don’t understand the work of the Holy Spirit : “what if the ‘holy spirit’ tells a catholic or protestant from a different church than you that your interpretation of the bible is wrong”. The spirit does not work in these ways but instead inspires every reader in a different way – a way that would speak directly to the individual.
If we disagree (believers) we say: “In Essentials, unity…In non-essentials, Liberty…But above all Charity” People will never whole heartedly agree on topics as important as scripture, because for every person the meaning is different.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth – so if whatever it reveals to you or me is different, it’s still truth to you or me…
Laters
April 9th, 2009 at 22:48
I thought at first that eoin was, uncharacteristically, talking rubbish. The I realised that the author of the above rubbish was “Eoin.” Another religionist trick to try to muddy the waters? Lying for Jesus? Incidentally, “Eoin” uses the word “incredibly.” Does he/she know that “incredible” means “unbelievable”?
April 9th, 2009 at 23:43
eoin, you’ve got an imposter!
April 10th, 2009 at 0:38
Hey Guys,
I don’t think we have got an imposter… If you look at comments 811 and 812, they are questions for Werner. I think Werner has accidentaly typed Eoins name in the wrong place.
Johnnyess: Can you explain what you mean by: “Another religionist trick to try to muddy the waters?”
Thanks guys – still praying for you all that you would discover the reality of God and his love for you. I pray that this easter (this weekend!!) you would realise that Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for you and all humanity by dieing on a cross for the wrong we have done that separates us from God so we can be forgiven and be reunited with our amazing Father God!!
Have a good weekend, cheers, Phil.
April 10th, 2009 at 4:04
For the last 4-5 days, it hasn’t let me post, but we’ll see, I just want to wish everyone a Happy Easter, whether they believe or not!
Debbie
April 10th, 2009 at 4:06
As the song I am listening to right now says “Love is a miracle!”
And so is it letting me post, provided I put something in every field… no matter whether it makes sense or not… Weird!
Deb
April 10th, 2009 at 8:42
Phil # 816
Well, I have in the recent past been involved in a blog comment discussion with a Christian who pretended to be two other people.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:02
Hi,
The crazy thing about the dodgy ‘Eoin’ post (it has to be Werner, typing in the wrong box – easy to do!) is that parts of it could have been written by anyone of us.
The bit – “People will never whole heartedly agree on topics as important as scripture, because for every person the meaning is different.” is exactly what I’ve been banging on about in the earlier discussions.
For me, it means that ’scripture’ is nothing more than a bunch of opinions, that can be picked or dropped as necessary – affected mainly by the culture of the day.
There are some values worth keeping from all religions, but come on, forget the sky-gods.
P.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:08
Hi all,
no 813 was not me – i guess Werner typed it in accident.
However, Werner (i presume….) you say..
“If we disagree (believers) we say: “In Essentials, unity…In non-essentials, Liberty…But above all Charity” People will never whole heartedly agree on topics as important as scripture, because for every person the meaning is different.”
Ok so you admit that people will never agree on how ancient texts should be used. However, my question was – what should you DO if other christians receive a message from the spirit that your interpretation of the text is not just wrong but should be stopped? You claim your authority from God – but so do they!
You claim “sola scriptura” – reading the bible as law. But this example challenges what the religious define as “true”. Who is doing what God whats and how do you know? If your spirit gives a different message to them of how the text should be used, then what do you do?
happy easter break to all.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:10
Ah. end paragraph should have had..
“Who is doing what God wants and how do you know?”
April 13th, 2009 at 13:32
Hi Guys
so sorry about the wrong name i typed in – don’t know how that happened.
will respond to all questions in the next day or so.
take care.
April 14th, 2009 at 7:35
Hi all,
Now that we are missing the Easter holiday – I wanted to raise a point as it is quite relevant to this time of year.
The Resurrection of Jesus is regarded as the foundation of Christianity. It is regarded as a defining event. However, after looking into this, I’ve found that in fact resurrection has occured throughout many religions. Before Judaism, many gods came back from the dead – Baal, Mithra, Osiris. This is really interesting – how has this happened? If all these other beings can die and come back from the dead, surely we need to investigate what is going on? How can so many gods that humans have worshipped be dying and coming back to life?
Is it simply that all these events are untrue and that the Resurrection of Jesus is true?
April 14th, 2009 at 11:19
“The Resurrection of Jesus is regarded as the foundation of Christianity. It is regarded as a defining event. However, after looking into this, I’ve found that in fact resurrection has occurred throughout many religions. Before Judaism, many gods came back from the dead – Baal, Mithra, Osiris. This is really interesting – how has this happened? If all these other beings can die and come back from the dead, surely we need to investigate what is going on? How can so many gods that humans have worshipped be dying and coming back to life?
Is it simply that all these events are untrue and that the Resurrection of Jesus is true?”
CS Lewis wrote about this issue. He said and I am paraphrasing, that he would very surprised if there weren’t stories preceding Christ’s about similar things, and similar is the point, the instances you cite Osiris especially, are not the same type of event at all! In fact, the closer you look the less these stories resemble the resurrection of Jesus!
In my opinion, of course these stories are untrue and the Resurrection of Jesus is true! Someone on h2g2 (and the people on the thread dedicated to Mr Dawkins read this!) said scathingly that he was surprised no one had noticed the phenomena the Gospels recount – darkness at noon etc. I fair wet myself laughing. That we’re talking about it 2000+ years later, shows people manifestly did notice.
Deb
April 14th, 2009 at 20:42
Hi Everyone.
Once again, sorry about the typo with the name ‘eoin’ – it wasn’t on purpose and hopefully won’t happen again.
Right:
#814 – Johnnyess “incredibly” – also means “very, extremely, amazingly, really,” …stop poking at the little bits will you…
#820 – Paul you say: “For me, it means that ’scripture’ is nothing more than a bunch of opinions, that can be picked or dropped as necessary – affected mainly by the culture of the day.”
It’s not about culture of the day – The Holy Spirit inspires individuals by revealing scripture to them about issues in their life. I could read a part of scripture now and the meaning of it could be pretty straight forward, but a year from now if I read it, and depending on my personal situation, the meaning could be completely different – because the spirit inspires us to understand the deeper meanings.
# 821 – Eoin – As I said to paul – the bible is interpreted differently by each person. That’s what makes it so alive and personal. If we have different ideas of how text should be ‘used’ then that’s that. (in my situation anyway) I’m not going to argue over it because for each individual it has a different meaning….
Laters.
April 14th, 2009 at 20:43
I though’t i’d post this also – appropriate to what we are discussing:
Dr. E. V. Rieu was a classical scholar and translator for many years. He rendered Homer into very modern English for the Penguin Classics. Rieu was sixty years old and a life-long agnostic when the same firm invited him to translate the Gospels. His son remarked: “It will be interesting to see what Father makes of the four Gospels. It will be even more interesting to see what the four Gospels make of Father.”
The answer was soon forthcoming. A year later, Rieu, convinced and converted, joined the Church of England.
In an interview with J. B. Phillips, Rieu confessed that he had undertaken the task of translation because of an “intense desire to satisfy himself as to the authenticity and spiritual content of the Gospels.” He was determined to approach the documents as if they were newly discovered Greek manuscripts,. “Did you not get the feeling,” asked Canon Phillips, “that the whole material was extraordinarily alive?” The classical scholar agreed. “I got the deepest feeling,” he replied. “My work changed me. I came to the conclusion that these words bear the seal of the Son of Man and God.”
April 14th, 2009 at 21:03
hey werner,
I find this interesting you say this..
“I’m not going to argue over it because for each individual it has a different meaning….”
Thats exactly my point – and you havent answered the question! First, you offer this text as something that we must obey. Second, when I ask what happens if the Holy Spirit gives us different interpretations, you say for each of us it is different.
I cant see how these two points can work together. Also, I stress the importance of this. What you *do* and *say* is directly related to how you *interprete* these ancient texts. Its really really important to work out who is doing this correctly.
So, again I ask – if another Christian gets a message from the Spirit that your interpretation is not only wrong but should be stopped. What should they do?
April 15th, 2009 at 15:35
hi Eoin.
“So, again I ask – if another Christian gets a message from the Spirit that your interpretation is not only wrong but should be stopped. What should they do?”
I would invite that person to tell me what their interpretation is and why the feel that what i do should be stopped. i will also pray about it and make a decision based on that….
April 15th, 2009 at 22:06
Hey Werner,
I definitely give you points for your diplomacy. However, theres a problem…
Your christian opponent would do *exactly* the same as you.
They would tell you the Spirit has guided them and that you are incorrect and immoral. They would also pray for you so that you received the “truth” and corrected the error of your ways…..
This is the result when human beings use an external supernatural beings as the authority of the rules we humans should use in life. In the above example, each of you claim that your relationship with the Holy Spirit is the correct one. But how do we tell who has the ‘correct’ relationship?
The answer is … there is no answer. Different Christians will keep telling each other that they are incorrect and that they are praying for them.
If they were praying for you to correct your beliefs, do you think it would influence you to consider/change your beliefs?
April 28th, 2009 at 7:14
wow – not a lot happening in the posts the last couple of weeks…
Eoin you say: “If they were praying for you to correct your beliefs, do you think it would influence you to consider/change your beliefs?”
if i knew they were praying for me to correct my beliefs it would not make me change anything. Their prayers however – and if it’s from God – would have an influence on me and i’d be compelled by the holy spirit to change, should i be wrong.
God loves you guys!! *(and gals)
cheers – from a rather chilly south africa
May 14th, 2009 at 17:48
Hi Guys, where have you all gone..?
Maybe you have all realised the truth and turned to God and are happily in a Church somewhere thanking Him for His amazing love for you!!
Cheers, Phil.
May 14th, 2009 at 19:11
No, Phil – i dont believe it is true. Even when I was dragged along to a church by my family i didnt believe it was “true”. You believe its true because either the generation before you told you it is, OR it makes you “feel” good, gives you a purpose etc.
The way you write really does smack of arrogance. I could just as easily claim youve seen the error of your ways and now worship the Forest Spirits or Ganesh. Because “your” god is obviously a heap of nonsence, right?
May 14th, 2009 at 19:38
eoin…
Sorry, I should have put a ‘he he’ at the end, as it was mean’t as a bit of a joke to see if anyone was still watching the site!! It was not said in arrogance, nothing I say or do can make God love me more… it is because of his amazing grace.
You said:
“You believe its true because either the generation before you told you it is, OR it makes you “feel” good, gives you a purpose etc.”
I am sure we have been through this many times before on this site… I don’t believe things just because I have been told them by my parents etc… and I don’t believe because it makes me feel good or gives me purpose… I believe because I know God is real and that He transforms people lives for the better… I have seem this too many times for it to be fluke… God is real and he loves us!! I pray that you will know this is true one day, not so I can say ‘told you so’, but so your life can be transformed and you can know how special you are because God created you.
Thanks, Phil.
May 15th, 2009 at 0:01
werner – “not a lot happening.”
Phil – “where have you all gone?”
We’re just all bored to death trying to counter your meaningless utterances:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaningless_statement
May 15th, 2009 at 0:17
Hi Johnnyess,
You said: “We’re just all bored to death trying to counter your meaningless utterances”.
That’s nice… and eoin said my post “smacked of arrogance”.
So if I am trying to lead my little toddler away from the hot radiator and he doesn’t understand why, is that a meaningless utterance to him..?
You see, at the moment you can’t brig yourselves to believe or understand that God is real which is why you think we are posting “meaningless utterances” – but that doesn’t mean that what we are saying is true – just like my toddler doesn’t know the radiator is hot…
Night… Phil.
May 15th, 2009 at 0:20
Sorry some typos…
you can’t ‘brig’ yourselves (bring)
that what we are saying ‘is’ true (isn’t)
Need some sleep!!
May 15th, 2009 at 6:20
Phil
“I have seem this too many times for it to be fluke…”
You could multiple the events you have ’seen’ by 1000 and it still would not be sufficient evidence. Your statement simply demonstrates how low your threshold is to believe in “something”. There simply must be something that is UP there controlling everything else nothing makes sence, right?!
There is a lot of work in psychology demonstrating that humans may actually evolved a requirement to believe in supernatural forces, spirts and gods. To a certain extent, we need it.
You use the word “know”. I “know” my god exists. Here we are again. What you, personally see is NOT evidence of any supernatural being. Having someone “tell” you that god has transformed them is NOT evidence. If you were brought up in India, you would “know” that Ganesh directs your life.
Think of it this way, what evidence would you require, to come to the decision that your god actually doesnt exist? If you came to the state where you “know” something, then surely additional evidence that counters that, would force you to change your mind? It is how we use evidence.
You dont KNOW your god exists – you have FAITH that it does. And faith is singlehandedly the worst idea us humans ever came up with.
My gods, I’m so glad I dont believe in all this nonsence anymore…. he he
May 18th, 2009 at 15:31
Back to the old bosh again, Phil, I see.
‘So if I am trying to lead my little toddler away from the hot radiator and he doesn’t understand why, is that a meaningless utterance to him..?’
So, what, you tell your toddler not to touch the radiator because otherwise God will burn his fingers?
Now that would be meaningless.
P.
May 24th, 2009 at 6:20
Well, i see nothing has changed.
interesting what Johnnyess said: ‘TRYING to counter….’
You admit then that it is a futile attempt to counter it? So glad you said so…
And, it would seem that we have come full circle – we are again discussing the issue of ‘faith’ and ‘knowing’. This is good – shows what should really be discussed.
God loves you. He sent Jesus to die for you. He is waiting to embrace you.
c’mon guys! Wake up! Time is ticking away. Stop being such hard apples and open your heart to the things unseen.
Cheers.
June 3rd, 2009 at 22:08
“c’mon guys! Wake up! Time is ticking away. Stop being such hard apples and open your heart to the things unseen.”
Hi Werner,
The language you use really does highlight how religious ideas have been passed down throughout the ages. You first highlight we’re running out of time, hinting that we should be afraid if we dont take up your offer. Salesmen use the same tactic.
You then ask us to ‘open our heart’. This is key. You appeal to us on a emotional level. Imagine human beings did this in other walks of life. Ask your bank manager for a loan and for him to open his heart. Maybe the police office, about to arrest you, could open her heart? Maybe the medical student should forget the surgery textbook and open his heart to homeopathic treatments (that dont work…)
Once again. Not for the first time. And not the last. You offer no evidence.
When pushed, the evidence you offer is that you have SEEN people healed in church. This just highlights the amazingly low standard of evidence you require. SEEKING aint evidence.
June 3rd, 2009 at 22:49
Werner – “Trying to counter?” Well, yes, how can a meaningless utterance possibly be countered? The onus surely is on the utterer to demonstrate that his/her utterance can be justified. Even Milton failed to do this.
June 4th, 2009 at 5:42
“The onus surely is on the utterer to demonstrate that his/her utterance can be justified.”
Exactly Werner. In all the time, we’ve debated, you havent offered any evidence at all that the supernatural being you believe in exists. None.
And seeing people in your church “healed” is NOT evidence. Remember SEEING is not KNOWING. Keep saying it.
June 4th, 2009 at 9:28
FAITH… remember guys..?
That is what we are talking about…
Faith is the belief in things unseen…
Just because they are unseen – does not make them any less real (I am sure you will have a field day with this…)
“Remember SEEING is not KNOWING” – I don’t need to see it, to know it to be real…
Have a great day… God is with you longing for you to be a part of your life… your creator.
Phil.
June 4th, 2009 at 9:46
“Just because they are unseen – does not make them any less real (I am sure you will have a field day with this…)”
Field day is certainly an understatement.
There are many religious communities that believe in spirits and witches – in exactly the same way you ‘know’ your specific god exists. They ‘know’ it too. In fact, every religious community claims they ‘know’ their particular god exists and that the others do not.
Gravity is unseen – but it is damn real. We have evidence. You and your colleagues who believe in spirts and witches – both of you – have none.
“God is with you longing for you to be a part of your life… your creator. ” …….Prove it. Oh wait – do I have to “open my heart”…??
August 15th, 2009 at 0:14
Hi guys – how are you all..?
Long time, no speak..?
Father God, I pray for these guys on this forum. Help them to understand who you are and how much they mean to you. Open their hearts to your love, give them purpose and hope. May they seek you and find you. Thank you that you know them, created them, and love them. Amen.
Cheers guys, all the best – praying for you…
Phil.
August 17th, 2009 at 6:19
Hi Phil,
Good thanks – but I havent contributed as I wasnt persuaded by any of the arguments that you raised. I still hold that “all” religion (from your god to the spirits of the forrests) is created by man – and can be explain by a cognitive theory of mind. I give some good examples – you talk of hope and purpose. Guess what? I dont require any kind of god to feel that I have hope and purpose in my life – but you appear it is necessary?! Why? Look at it a different way – if one morning you felt there was actually no god – do you think you would lose all hope and purpose? Would you not be motivated by your work or your family? Why does there have to be a ‘force’ at work in control of everything? I find that a deeply disturbing idea – and am glad I cant believe in it.
Next, you never successfully argued why your god exists and others do not. What happens when you die and Siva and Brahma are waiting for you – will you repent? The reason you believe in your particular god is because you were born into/live among a christian community. You would ’stand out’ if you claimed a belief in Siva etc !
Finally… and as us non-believers have said many times: please dont pray for us – its slight offensive. We’ve told you we dont agree and dont believe in any gods. By praying you just prove that you ignore what we say – so I ask once again – please dont! Your good wishes are enough – thanks.
August 17th, 2009 at 13:34
Phil,
Have a go at reading this http://tinyurl.com/qo5fch
Its on the deconversion of Julian Baggini, the philospher – how he lost his faith.
I’m sure “inside” your faith does make sence. Its only when you become objective that things unravel. If you were to look at your religion in the same way you look at Ganesh – you may find yourself believing in human beings and not a god.
good luck
September 14th, 2009 at 23:54
I’d just like to draw your attention to this:
“The Atheist’s Guide To Christmas” is the UK’s first atheist charity book, featuring contributions from Richard Dawkins, Derren Brown, Ben Goldacre, Simon Singh, Claire Rayner, David Baddiel, Charlie Brooker and many more. It’s been edited by Ariane Sherine, the creator of the hugely successful Atheist Bus Campaign. It’s out on Oct 1st and all royalties are going to the HIV charity Terrence Higgins Trust. Please pre-order now:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Atheists-Guide-Christmas-Ariane-Sherine/dp/0007322615/
The Atheist’s Guide is a mix of humorous and poignant contributions from over 40 various prominent atheists. It’ll make an ideal Christmas gift for your atheist friends. Your religious friends will love it too, or, even better, it’ll put them in a foul mood for Xmas! So a win-win situation! More info on the Facebook group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=128903634833
Your support will not only maintain the profile of atheism in the UK, it will also help raise funds for the very worthy THT charity. Please note that the contributors, and Ms Sherine, have waived payment for their considerable input into the “Guide”.
Thank you, and please pass this message on to everyone you know!!
September 15th, 2009 at 20:51
Hello everyone!
There’s just been a very imortant development in the Atheist Bus Campaign. Please read post 849 by clicking on the link!
Many thanks!