Campaign: Atheist Bus
21.10.08 | Ariane |
Atheism, Atheist Bus Campaign, Donation, Donations, Fundraising, Humour, London Buses, Richard Dawkins, Slogan, Thank You
** We reached the total at 1006 BST (GMT+1) on 21st October, just over 10 hours after launch – thank you so much to everyone who contributed! If you haven’t donated yet and would like to then please do – we are now aiming to launch a full advertising campaign across the UK! **
The Atheist Bus Campaign launches today, Tuesday October 21. With your support, we hope to raise £5,500 to run 30 buses across the capital for four weeks with the slogan: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” Donate online now!
Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, is officially supporting the Atheist Bus Campaign, and has generously agreed to match all donations up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we reach the full amount – enough for a much bigger campaign. Our campaign partner, the British Humanist Association, will be administering all donations.
With your help, we can brighten people’s days on the way to work, help raise awareness of atheism in the UK, and hopefully encourage more people to come out as atheists. We can also counter the religious adverts which are currently running on London buses, and help people think for themselves.
As Richard Dawkins says: “This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think – and thinking is anathema to religion.”
856 Responses to “Campaign: Atheist Bus”
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February 18th, 2009 at 23:55
Hi Alastair,
Thank you so much for getting back to us about how your week has gone. Thanks for being honest too about how you have felt. I really respect you for giving this week a go!
Although you may not have had any ‘revelation’ over this week – remember God has heard your prayers and will respond. I believe that because you have done this challenge with an open heart and mind, God will honour you and will respond in time. So please keep checking this forum and posting from time to time so we can all keep in contact and see whats happening.
All the best, Phil.
February 19th, 2009 at 7:04
Hi Phil,
You keep on falling into the same trap in your argument – not only do you believe in a particular supernatural being – but you also know its “thoughts” too….
“remember God has heard your prayers and will respond.”
Where is your causal proof for this? How are you any different from a tribal elder who believes “the spirits from the Forest” are talking to him?
February 22nd, 2009 at 9:11
Hi Eoin. I think you misinterpreted what Phil was saying. We know that God heard his prayers due to the other people we asked to pray for him. People receive certain words of knowledge and scriptures that related to Alastair’s situation. God confirmed He heard alastair’s prayers by giving a specific scripture to a lady as she was praying for Alastair. This is one of the ways that God works. We cannot begin to comprehend what God is thinking, but we understand and know his Character to a degree…mainly based on the Revelations in our own lives and because of the Promises in His Word.
laters…
February 22nd, 2009 at 10:45
Hi Werner,
I dont see how I’m misinterpreting anything. You say..
“People receive certain words of knowledge and scriptures”
Ok. Wheres the causal proof of this? If I say Siva or Ganesh or Thor has spoken to me – I would think general society would think I’m barking mad.
If you say the abrahamic god speaks to you or to a jew or a muslim, then we have to ‘respect’ that. Well – actually, no I dont respect that. In a democracy, I believe you have the right to do it, but I dont have to respect it.
I demand proof – otherwise my position is that your minds psychology is creating ‘voices’. It is absolutely 100% no different from the tribal elder who believes “the spirits from the Forest” are talking to him.
February 26th, 2009 at 15:34
Hi Guys, hope you are all doing well.
There are people praying specifically for you guys on this forum from around the world. You see, we care about you and want to share the most amazing thing in this universe with you – to show you that you can have a relationship with God who loves you.
Did any of you take a look at the article in the Times Newspaper that I put the link to a while back..? About the Atheist reporter who has seen that belief in God has transformed peoples lives in Africa..? This is the link again…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.ece
Some of his quotes…
“As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God
Missionaries, not aid money, are the solution to Africa’s biggest problem – the crushing passivity of the people’s mindset”
“But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I’ve been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I’ve been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.”
“Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.”
“Faith does more than support the missionary; it is also transferred to his flock. This is the effect that matters so immensely, and which I cannot help observing.”
“In the city we had working for us Africans who had converted and were strong believers. The Christians were always different. Far from having cowed or confined its converts, their faith appeared to have liberated and relaxed them. There was a liveliness, a curiosity, an engagement with the world – a directness in their dealings with others – that seemed to be missing in traditional African life. They stood tall.”
“Whenever we entered a territory worked by missionaries, we had to acknowledge that something changed in the faces of the people we passed and spoke to: something in their eyes, the way they approached you direct, man-to-man, without looking down or away. They had not become more deferential towards strangers – in some ways less so – but more open.”
There is more to this article if you want to read it all. I thought it was important to post parts of it here for those who might not have clicked the link last time. Remember – this is an atheist reporters views here… quite interesting don’t you think..? Maybe seeing is believing after all eoin..? Hey, but has he got your “Causal Proof” well maybe, maybe not – but he has seen that there is a common link between the positive effect that Christianity has on the lives of those living in Africa.
Thanks, Phil.
February 26th, 2009 at 16:07
WOW – Praise God for that report and for what He is doing in Africa. it’s interesting that one never hears of hindu or muslim missionairies hey? Always christian missionaries. I’d like to believe it’s because the Christian person is filled with love and wants to take that love to the corners of the earth. – as for the other guys – i don’t think they care whether you believe or not – as long as they are sorted the rest don’t matter. pretty selfish if you ask me….
February 26th, 2009 at 21:04
Hi Guys,
Wondered when we’d here from you next.
Phil, I did read the article. Strange to hear you two praising an atheist’s views. I note how he appreciated these people’s generosity of spirit and ‘thought’ it probably was to to with their faith. How reasonable – he’s probably right.
Didn’t convert him, though, did it? Why not? Hmm, it might be because he is reasonable.
And Werner, you’re up to your tricks again, comparing religions – don’t you remember our earlier evidence of Christian savagery?
And whilst we’re on that subject, I wonder if Matthew Parris hung around for long in the north of Nigeria, where Christians and Muslims regularly set each other’s communities on fire (literally).
Paul
February 26th, 2009 at 21:27
Thanks, Paul N – I’m so glad you chipped in to counter the arguments of these two blinkered individuals. I felt I ought to, but in the end I couldn’t be bothered. Banging your head against a brick wall – it’s such a relief when you stop. But somebody’s got to do it. Thanks again.
February 26th, 2009 at 22:45
Hi johnnyess,
Thanks for the back-up. I did hesitate but thought the same as you – someone’s got to do it.
And hang on a Minute – we have Had some success – Werner has (almost) completely Dropped the Inappropriate capitals.
Paul.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:26
Hi There is a new book out in U.S.A. “Losing my religion” written by a religion writer for the L.A.Times. It contains quotes from many of our founding fathers that makes their fear of religion as a component in democracy clear. Their fears have been realized in the past couple of decades here in the U.S.A. as the rise of the christian right has strongly influenced politics. We have become more and more divided as a nation and less and less open to rational discussion on any issue. I have expressed this to my neighbors and co-workers and now am expressing to you.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:32
Hi Guys…
Paul… We don’t know where the reporter is with God at the moment but he does say:
“It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.”
So his “reasonable” thinking has been challenged. Watch this space!!
Anyway guys, I hope your heads are not hurting too much from “banging your heads against a brick wall”… Sorry, but this wall isn’t going to crumble – you see, it is built on the firm foundation of truth. Maybe you could stop banging your heads and accept the invitation to walk through the open door!!
Phil.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:41
Phil,
This is the worst argument youve yet had.
Some journowrites an article that hes found god so we have to give up and believe too??!! Please! I think youre wrong and I think hes wrong too. His position that religion is good for Africa is immoral. Religion has done untold damage to African society. The Vatican has done everything it can to ban sex education and the level of homophobia there is as a result of religion. He should be ashamed of the article.
For you to use him as a method of challenging us is…. embassing.
“Sorry, but this wall isn’t going to crumble – you see, it is built on the firm foundation of truth.”
No. its built on a found of “your opinion” – you have a “book” and you hear “voices” thats it. We return to causal proof and you claim its impossible to provide any. Big surprise there.
I still disagree with your opinion – I do not believe in ANY gods. Including yours.
February 27th, 2009 at 13:16
Phew….i can feel the heat in here…
Guys – let’s make one thing clear. Phil and I are not trying to attack you or persuade you – WE can never do that. all we are doing is to try to show you that what you KNOW about Christianity is not all there is to it. You probably had the wrong examples of a Christian – as so many other have. Phil’s right – the door is open – all you have to do is walk through. God is on the other side with arms wide open just waiting to embrace you.
February 27th, 2009 at 13:40
Earl,
Good point – the US is great example of the damage of religion. Many churches there worship ‘dogma’. You simply cannot have a debate as they refuse to inform their opinions with evidence – instead they rely on ancient texts.
February 27th, 2009 at 13:44
Werner,
this is exactly the problem…
“the door is open – all you have to do is walk through. God is on the other side with arms wide open just waiting to embrace you.”
I dont agree with your position – you CLAIM there is a being and you CLAIM it is waiting for us.
We have debated a lot. But I have yet to see ANY causal evidence.
All you have is opinion. So in future write “I believe there is a God is on the other side and I believe it is just waiting to embrace you.”
Thats your CLAIM. But youve no proof.
February 27th, 2009 at 16:14
Hi all,
Here are some lovely African Christians from a year or so ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4748154.stm
Look at the harmony and the generosity of spirit on display. Looks a bit ‘old testament’ to me!
P.
February 28th, 2009 at 8:48
Hi Paul. Looked at the pictures and read the article. Very sad indeed. Once again – looking back at the ages – and countries like nigeria – you were either a ‘christian’ or one of the other religions. being called – or calling yourself a christian – is an absolute farse if you do not live your life by it as well. I have met ‘christians’ who on sundays are the nicest people alive – but come the week they commit fraud, step on people on their way ‘up’ and do EVERYTHING a christian is not supposed to do. These individuals merely silence thier own conscience. This is not the example that Jesus brought to earth. and unfortunately, people like yourself, classify all christians based on what these people (or the churches in the past) do or have done. Being a disciple of Jesus – i condemn these actions and anything related to it. IT’S NOT CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOUR. I wish that you could see the difference – looking past your own convictions and beliefs – and seeing us (Phil and I) for who we realy are – and why we are on this forum….
February 28th, 2009 at 9:49
Werner,
” IT’S NOT CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOUR. …”
Erm… nonsence. You wish to CLAIM christians are about love and peace and understanding etc etc. Its simply not true. For every example you give about someone in your church receiving the love of god, I can show you a dozen examples of christian nutcases expounding their bigotted views, being homophobic and generally attacking all other religions. It gets even better when inside christianity you ask protestants about catholics and vice versa. Ive even hear catholics described as ‘theyre certainly not christian’.
Christians talk about love – but boy are there conditions for you to get it from them. Its tribalism pure and simple.
Another example of christianly behaviour. Oh… and they are christians and their behaving in this way….ergo ITS CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOUR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2EYN78zsEk
February 28th, 2009 at 10:29
Hi Werner,
So can you appreciate what the difficulty is, then?
The people in those pictures have exactly the same beliefs as you and Phil. Adam and Eve, Moses, Jesus et al.
You yourself constantly refer to the Old Testament, but you have to pick and choose very carefully which bits fit in with your Western European cultural view. The Nigerian Christians merely pick other parts of the ‘truth’ to fit their requirements.
The Nigerian Christians claim that they are doing god’s work with exactly the same sort of conviction as you and Phil.
Phil didn’t like me asking you guys to say how far you would go in obedience to god – not a very nice question in normal polite (Western European) society, but the Nigerian Christians wouldn’t have a problem answering it.
You should feel lucky to live in the UK – where, at least currently, our secular laws and values don’t allow religions to have real influence.
Paul
February 28th, 2009 at 12:30
Paul,
Couldnt agree more. Christianity has been forced to compromise, to pick and choose as society has progressed. It still condems the entire gay community. A hypocritical move, considering the number of gay catholic priests.
Werner, you are simply forced to pick and choose from your philosophy – there is plenty in it that is simply reprehensible. You CLAIM ‘goodness’ comes from your philosophy – I’m sure there is. However, there is AT LEAST AS MUCH damage done by it.
February 28th, 2009 at 13:05
Paul N said:
“Phil didn’t like me asking you guys to say how far you would go in obedience to god – not a very nice question in normal polite (Western European) society, but the Nigerian Christians wouldn’t have a problem answering it.”
Urmm – not true!! Have a look back at my response – I didn’t mind you asking me that question at all. God has placed us here on earth to share the good news of his love with those we meet – like you guys on this forum. We are here to share good news, to bring peace, hope, and love.
I think you would find many people would call themselves Christian (I know people myself). Some because they think that the UK is a Christian country so that makes them a Christian, others think that going to church makes them a Christian, others because they were confirmed/baptised as a child etc… BUT the real meaning of a Christian is someone who has accepted God into their own lives and who lives to do God’s peaceful, hopeful, loving will on earth. You see Christianity isn’t a Reigion – it is a relationship with God. SO, violence etc done in the name of religion and Christianity is not condoned by God, it is not what he wants!!
Phil.
February 28th, 2009 at 13:32
Phil
So, how do you know you’re not a Hindu, then? How do you know that the god with which you have a relationship is not a Hindu god?
Your definitions of what it is to be a Christian could equally be applied to a Hindu God.
According to your post, the methodology of worship is irrelevant – being baptised, confirmed, attending church, etc. You say that none of these things mean that you are a Christian, but you’re wrong…our definitions of the various religions is defined by how we choose to exercise that belief.
If you claim that you have a direct relationship with god which transcends accepted methods of worship, then there’s nothing which suggest that you are not worshipping the same god as Muslims, Hindus, etc., unless god has actually told you that he is the god of the bible, in which case we are back to square one.
You seem to know an awful lot about what god wants…where did you receive this information from?
February 28th, 2009 at 14:22
Phil,
Ahem, this …God has placed us here on earth to share the good news of his love with those we meet – like you guys on this forum. We are here to share good news, to bring peace, hope, and love. … is not an answer to any question I posed.
I’ll tell you why you spin your way out of answering it. If you obey the voices in your head and do something that goes against the law, or even against the norm, you’ll be considered a nutter. But if you say you wouldn’t do such a thing, it calls a lot of what you say into question, not least your own personal ‘obedience’.
Phil, I’m afraid you are in a state of indoctrination. Either it was forced upon you as child, gently or not, or you chose to be indoctrinated as an adult. Either way, you get a chance to suspend reason and live in a fairy-tale world.
The common requirement in your version of Christianity and all the versions you claim to be false is exactly this suspension of reason.
But luckily you are from a liberal secular society, that is tolerant and frowns on violence, so you can tweak your version to fit the culture, by leaving out all nasty bits.
Paul.
February 28th, 2009 at 14:31
“Nasty bits” such as God’s instruction to Abraham to murder his son. What is your moral take on that? Was God’s behaviour admirable? Or cruel?
February 28th, 2009 at 15:09
Phil,
“Some because they think that the UK is a Christian country so that makes them a Christian”
Nonsence. Church attendence is around 12% of the country. The UK is certainty NOT a Christian country. It HAS a Christian history…. but then again it also has a Pagan history and a Celtic history….. so.
February 28th, 2009 at 17:19
Hi all,
RedCitrus… I know I am a Christian and worship the one true God. The only way to God is through Christ who died for each one of us.
John 3:16 (The Message)
16-18 “This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn’t go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person’s failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.”
You see guys – Jesus died for you so you can have a relationship with your creator – God.
Just going to church isn’t what makes you a Christian (although it is a good thing to do – a place to learn – a place of social action etc), no – to be a Christian you have to accept God into your life and realise that he loves you that much that he sent Jesus to die for you.
eoin… Please read my post again!! I didn’t say that I thought this country was a Christian one. I said that SOME people think that this country is Christian and that they think this makes them a Christian. I know this to be true as I have done a street survey myself and this was some peoples answer.
Phil.
February 28th, 2009 at 17:32
Phil,
I may have misread your post – but Im glad we agree the UK is not Christian – and in my opinion all the better for it.
You are still giving bible quotes. I ask you again to stop. If I dont regard your ‘book’ as evidence, why should these quotes have ANY influence on me? You may as well use harry potter.
How much influence does the Koran have on you? None I presume?
February 28th, 2009 at 19:38
Phil,
We could go on all night quoting meaningless passages at each other. Like these…
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Exodus 21:20-21
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
…and, there are of course, plenty more examples.
You keep falling back on the bible as some kind of evidence that your god exists, and I don’t see the connection.
Now, if you really believe that your god has “spoken” to you, did he confirm to you that he was indeed the god of the christian bible, and that you should ignore the Torah, Koran etc.? If that is the case, then I don’t understand how you can pick and choose what sections of the bible you wish to follow, as to do so must contradict his word?
February 28th, 2009 at 19:47
RedCitrus,
Totally Agree.
Paul – if the Bible is youre evidence for us, well im embassed for you. You simply pick and choose which bits you ‘think’ sound ‘christian’ (as you define it) – but its a work filled with the tribalism of human beings – throughly nasty book. Oh and dont claim the New Testament as the solution – its only there that we get eternal damnation. Stop with the bible quotes – evidence it aint. Embassing, it certainly is.
February 28th, 2009 at 20:37
Er eion …
Hope you didn’t mean me!
P
March 1st, 2009 at 2:44
“And Werner, you’re up to your tricks again, comparing religions – don’t you remember our earlier evidence of Christian savagery?”
Oh dear, I do find it very amusing the way atheists regard their own assertions as constituting evidence of something, and therefore they feel entitled to insult someone for not accepting their assertion! As I recall his ‘evidence of Christian savagery’ was of the “because I say it’s true” variety!
March 1st, 2009 at 2:48
@eoin, who says “A hypocritical move, considering the number of gay catholic priests.”
That’s a revolting lie, and a sneering nasty assertion, characteristic of some atheists. You ought to be deeply ashamed of such snaky twisty low cunning! It clearly shows where you’re coming from, however, which can only be a good thing.
March 1st, 2009 at 2:56
To Eoin, Paul, RedCitrus etc…
I understand why you guys always cite the OT, and why you’ll do tortuous back-flips to keep from knowing that when Christ came a new Covenant was instituted rendering all the OT passages you love to hate, historical and irrelevant!
It’s not safe to criticise Jews or Judaism, which is why you don’t.
But come on men, do be honest, even if only with yourselves! You’ve been told often enough (I know you have RedCitrus, I’ve seen you on the Dawk site), that the OT passages that make you wet yourself with joy, and always quote in the KJ version, because its known inaccuracies serve your obsessive cause so well, have been superseded.
Where would you be without Mr Dawkins or the Skeptics Annotated Bible to hold your hands? You accuse us of being brain-washed and indoctrinated, well as my old Mum would have said – “Pot. Kettle. Black”.
March 1st, 2009 at 9:57
Hi Debbie,
You say -”As I recall his ‘evidence of Christian savagery’ was of the “because I say it’s true” variety!”
Did you look at the link to Nigerian story – or do you think atheists fabricated this evidence?
Just read the posts with your eyes open – even Phil and Werner accept that atrocities are done in the name of Christ but go on to say that the people who do them cannot actually be Christians. The argument I am trying to put across is that it’s secular culture that determines whether we massacre each other or not.
And Werner and Phil constantly refer to ‘texts’ – I can’t remember if you do too. Phil believes that Adam and Eve actually existed. Er, isn’t that the ‘OT’? Are you saying that Adam and Eve didn’t exist?
Paul
PS If a Jew, Muslim or member of any blind faith comes on to this forum, I will try and counter their suspension of reason too.
March 1st, 2009 at 10:16
Debbie,
I agree the OT is useful as evidence of the kind of things that Christians believe – but it is not until you get to the NT where we are told of the idea of ‘eternal damnation’. So, the NT is just as bad.
And I’m not ashamed at all of describing the fact that many catholic priests are gay. It stands to reason within any global organisation that some will be. Why should I be ashamed? – the Vatican as even acknowledged it is the case. I would have thought it can only liven the Vatican up….;)
You also claim we do not provide evidence. Well, this is a philosphical point – it is you who claims a supernatural being exists, created everything and loves you. Its your claim – we feel there is not sufficent evidence to believe this. So, it is *you* who needs to provide evidence. And quotes from the bible, OT or NT dont come close to evidence.
Finally, you claim we insult you. Thats not my intention – I regard this as a debate. I think youre wrong and althought I respect your right to believe in whatever you wish to – I certainly do not have to respect it.
Final thought – if it wasnt for the atheist bus campaign we’d wouldnt be having this debate. I think its definitely a move in the right direction.
March 1st, 2009 at 10:24
Paul,
Just read your post – opps!! of course I was challenging Phil on constant bible quotes.
March 1st, 2009 at 10:55
Hi Eoin,
Thought so – but just wanted to make double-sure!
Heh-heh!
P.
March 2nd, 2009 at 0:48
Debbie
It’s not difficult to find stupid passages from the bible. Just google “stupid passages from the bible”. Easy. There are plenty of them.
I have to admit to a certain selfishness in posting to this forum. Being a relatively well educated person, I don’t know a single person in my extensive network of friends who believes in “god”.
Now, I realise that education is the enemy of religion and all that, but this forum really is a rare opportunity for me to discuss the nature of faith with those who don’t share my point of view. It’s not an opportunity I get very often.
Let’s face it, the most eloquent individuals on this site aren’t the ones batting for Team Jesus, are they? Your side can barely string coherent sentences together, let alone assemble a reasonable argument. Prove us wrong by providing us with a compelling argument that doesn’t just rely on chunks of biblical text. We’re all ears.
I am fascinated by why people believe this stuff, as it just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to me. I mean, you *really* believe a big man in the sky made the world around us? Really?
My problem is that if, as you say, Jesus’ arrival on earth effectively tossed the Old Testament in the bin, what does that mean for the millions of Christians out there who do still follow it? We’ve been talking a lot about what separates Christians from Hindus, but what separates Catholics from Protestants; Baptists from Presbytarians; Methodists from Mormons? Which one are you?
You can’t all be right, so why do any of them have to be?
March 2nd, 2009 at 1:14
@Paul N who said ” even Phil and Werner accept that atrocities are done in the name of Christ but go on to say that the people who do them cannot actually be Christians. ”
That’s true. People who commit atrocities are acting contrary to Christianity, and ergo, are not Christians.
“Phil believes that Adam and Eve actually existed. Er, isn’t that the ‘OT’? Are you saying that Adam and Eve didn’t exist?”
I believe they are allegorical, yes.
Many Christians, perhaps most, are neither Creationists nor Biblical literalists, although I am aware that Mr Dawkins insists we all are. A bizarre example is another atheist site, h2g2, where a young woman, a Catholic and a working astronomer, is being deluged with orders to read primers on evolution, as the default assumption seems to be that she’s a Creationist, when she’s already said that she isn’t! Hands over ears, and not listening to any believer, I suspect…
” If a Jew, Muslim or member of any blind faith comes on to this forum, I will try and counter their suspension of reason too.”
I believe you’d “counter” a Muslim, but not a Jew. As for ‘countering’ a Jew, I’ll believe it when I see it, although 99% of the things you claim to find so appalling are Jewish beliefs not Christian.
March 2nd, 2009 at 1:28
@RedCitrus, who said “Now, I realise that education is the enemy of religion”
Please, give me a break! I am highly educated, as are many thousands of believers. The elitism of atheists is well-known, you pride yourself on your superiority, especially educational, but look at Francis Collins, Alister McGrath and many others I could name. Education is not the enemy of religion. As you know (but wish you didn’t), the first schools and universities were all affiliated with churches.
” Your side can barely string coherent sentences together, let alone assemble a reasonable argument.”
Your assertion. You dislike the people on “Team Jesus” (all 3 of us!), and do your level best to keep us away… (What Adriane S called a ‘technical glitch’ kept me from posting for more than two months. Technical glitch, yeah. Of course.)
“”
Big man in the sky? No. That’s what Mr Dawkins asserts, but even people on Team Dawkins are now willing to admit that the Christians he argues against are “straw men” as is his idea of God. No one thinks God is a “big man in the sky”. God is not corporeal to start with!
“My problem is that if, as you say, Jesus’ arrival on earth effectively tossed the Old Testament in the bin, what does that mean for the millions of Christians out there who do still follow it? ”
The answer to that is, these ‘millions of Christians” take note of it, but do not follow it, apart from such midguided people as the Seventh Day Adventists who believe they still have to follow OT dietary laws.
“We’ve been talking a lot about what separates Christians from Hindus, but what separates Catholics from Protestants; Baptists from Presbytarians; Methodists from Mormons? Which one are you?”
Not that it’s relevant, but I belong to the Open Brethren, and the Anglicans and I tend towards Catholicism. In other words, I am a Christian. I am not a Hindu, because I chose to be a Christian. I was brought up, as you may remember me saying on the Dawk site before I was thrown off for, as far as I know, being too articulate, I was raised in an atheist household. Some there chose to insist that I was lying about being brought up by atheist and agnostic parents, but to say I lied about that is simply absurd!
Deb
You can’t all be right, so why do any of them have to be?
March 2nd, 2009 at 1:29
RedCitrus…
Being a relatively well educated person myself, I know many people in my extensive network of friends who believes in “God” (Sorry, you forgot the Capital).
I have a first class honours degree, many of my friends are teachers (heads, department leaders etc), solicitors, business owners… I could go on. We are not all dim people who believe the first thing we hear. You see, we have reasoned too and have realised that God is real.
Phil.
March 2nd, 2009 at 10:16
Phil, Debbie (and Werner),
Seems like you guys disagree on quite a fundamental issue.
Debbie considers Genesis an allegory whilst Phil thinks it actually happened.
Both consider themselves Christians. Both consider ‘other’ Christians – ie those who don’t agree with them – not real Christians. In other places and other times Phil and Debbie would be calling each other heretics. They might still do!
My point still stands – the reason Debbie and Phil aren’t torching each other is because they live in a tolerant secular society – one that, as far as possible, only pays lip sevice to religion. The idea that we all give this up and succumb to fantasy is not very appealing.
However flawed our society is, at least attempts at reason are made in deciding how our country is run. We can all see what happens in other countries when this attitude is dropped.
Paul.
PS Debbie, since you consider Genesis an allegory, would you say that evolution is at least a reasonable hypothesis?
March 2nd, 2009 at 10:17
Phil
Maybe I should have used the word “gods” instead, as there are some who don’t believe in the same god as you. It’s not a proper noun in this context, and therefore the use of a capital is incorrect.
I wasn’t suggesting that belief in god(s) is restricted only to those who have not had the benefit of a university education – it’s still possible to study theology! – but that, in general, a more highly educated populace is less likely to follow religion. This is why religion flourishes in those countries with a less comprehensive education system – third world countries, for instance. Generally speaking, as a country becomes educated to a higher level, religious belief reduces.
Debbie – yes, I agree that many of the country’s educational institutions were started by the church, but by control of the education system the church has the opportunity to instil a religious viewpoint at an early age; it’s in their interest. This is why there has been such a rise in “faith schools” across the UK since the rules about private sponsorship have been relaxed. Some of this is no doubt partially philanthropic, but it’s difficult to swallow when people like Peter Vardy have control over the education of young people.
To me, your belief in a god is no different from, say, the Aztec’s belief in a sun god. Through the introduction of Catholicism – and the education programme that accompanied it – these religions were pretty much wiped out across Central and South America. One day this will happen to Christianity as well, as a more educated population reject superstition in favour of scientific progress. Thanks to Copernicus, just as we no longer belief that the world is at the centre of the universe, the idea that there is some “divine creator” will soon be as laughable as the idea of a flat earth.
March 2nd, 2009 at 10:22
By the way, very interesting report in the Guardian today.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/02/charles-darwin-creationism-intelligent-design
March 2nd, 2009 at 10:26
Hmm Debbie, just read this again …
You say – “I believe you’d “counter” a Muslim, but not a Jew. As for ‘countering’ a Jew, I’ll believe it when I see it, although 99% of the things you claim to find so appalling are Jewish beliefs not Christian.”
Two things –
1. Why not a Jew? What’s the difference?
2. The 99% you talk about – the ‘OT’ – has been spouted by ‘Team Jesus’ on quite a few occasions in these discussions. We have responded to it by quoting other parts of the same book that contradict the original ’spoutings’. Are you saying that this is unreasonable on our part?
March 2nd, 2009 at 14:17
Yet more survey based evidence (not causal) to suggest creationism is a minor trend in the UK – fantastic news – as long as methodology.
http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/mainnav/theos-news.aspx
Some thoughts…
- where is the highest number of believers of creationism? Northern Ireland – who’d have guessed that one eh?!
- a heartwarming finding is 42% of people believe that evolution presents some challenges to Christianity but that it is possible to believe in BOTH. Now, aint that just interesting….
Sample size was 2,060 and they also used a second control group of 1000. So method seems ok.
March 3rd, 2009 at 2:22
@Paul N, who said ” Both consider ‘other’ Christians – ie those who don’t agree with them – not real Christians. In other places and other times Phil and Debbie would be calling each other heretics. They might still do!”
Where did you get that idea? I’ve never called anyone an heretic in my life, not even as a joke. From his postings, I consider Phil a good man, and if he disagrees with me on this issue, it doesn’t make either of us any less or more a Christian than the other! Where on did you get the idea I don’t accept evolution? I do, of course, and always have. What I don’t accept is Mr Dawkins’ insistence that if evolution is true, then atheism inevitably follows! Try telling that to Francis Collins or to this guy…
http://fritchie.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/christianity-vs-evolution-a-false-debate/
Frank Ritchie a friend of mine.
Debbie
March 3rd, 2009 at 2:30
@Paul N who said “Two things -
1. Why not a Jew? What’s the difference?
2. The 99% you talk about – the ‘OT’ – has been spouted by ‘Team Jesus’ on quite a few occasions in these discussions. We have responded to it by quoting other parts of the same book that contradict the original ’spoutings’. Are you saying that this is unreasonable on our part?”
You ‘counter’ Christians by being abusive. Abusing Jews is a very risky thing to do, politically speaking. QED. (Please note, I am using plural ‘you’, not talking about ‘you’ in particular’)
What’s unreasonable is not your quoting Scripture, but your quoting it out of context, and for the purpose of claiming to find contradictions or atrocities. Look at any history book, of any culture and you’ll find ample evidence of discreditable events. You ignore as hard as you possibly can, any place in the Bible where the atrocities you feed on are condemned or stated to be superseded. You always quote the KJV because of its known inaccuracies and infelicities. You ignore (though I am sure you know) that Christians don’t claim any translation, especially one as late as the KJV to be inerrant.
Deb
March 3rd, 2009 at 2:58
Jews and Judaism are as much up for criticism as any other religion, in my opinion and I could care less whether it’s risky or otherwise.
It’s no more risky to criticise Judaism as Islam. Perhaps less so, as Jews, in this country, aren’t overly renowned for marching through London waving banners calling for the downfall of the west.
I find it interesting how within the Christian faith there is an incredible amount of contradiction and disagreement. Indeed, some of the comments on this blog have claimed that such and such a person isn’t a christian because of this reason or that reason. I’d wager they’d claim you are not a christian for opposite reason.
Taking the God Hates Fags lunatics. They certainly back up their beliefs with strong evidence from the new testament of the bible.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/written/reports/20060331_god-loves-everyone-lie.pdf
You will no doubt say they’re not christian, they’d say you’re not christian. Who’s right? Have they also taken bible quotes out of context?
March 3rd, 2009 at 3:39
No, I wouldn’t claim the “God hates fags” loonies aren’t Christian. I’d simply say that they are acting in ways contrary to God’s will, not to mention contrary to common sense!
They have a very small following and 99% of their fellow Christians, even in the USA, where extremists tend to gather, they are not approved of by other Christians.
Hence, they are no more to be taken as representative of all Christians, than Osama Bin Laden is to be taken as representative of all Muslims.
Deb