Campaign: Atheist Bus
21.10.08 | Ariane |
Atheism, Atheist Bus Campaign, Donation, Donations, Fundraising, Humour, London Buses, Richard Dawkins, Slogan, Thank You
** We reached the total at 1006 BST (GMT+1) on 21st October, just over 10 hours after launch – thank you so much to everyone who contributed! If you haven’t donated yet and would like to then please do – we are now aiming to launch a full advertising campaign across the UK! **
The Atheist Bus Campaign launches today, Tuesday October 21. With your support, we hope to raise £5,500 to run 30 buses across the capital for four weeks with the slogan: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” Donate online now!
Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, is officially supporting the Atheist Bus Campaign, and has generously agreed to match all donations up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we reach the full amount – enough for a much bigger campaign. Our campaign partner, the British Humanist Association, will be administering all donations.
With your help, we can brighten people’s days on the way to work, help raise awareness of atheism in the UK, and hopefully encourage more people to come out as atheists. We can also counter the religious adverts which are currently running on London buses, and help people think for themselves.
As Richard Dawkins says: “This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think – and thinking is anathema to religion.”
856 Responses to “Campaign: Atheist Bus”
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Pages: « 1 … 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 … 18 » Show All
February 13th, 2009 at 11:56
Hi eoin,
I have looked at some Hindu websites and realise I have a problem… it says about Ganesh:
“How can you reach Ganesh and get his assistance? Very simple. To contact Lord Ganesh, hold his form steady in your mind with eyes closed. Now you can talk to him. He will listen, but not speak back. You simply must put all of your questions and problems at his feet and then open your eyes. Ganesha answers you not in words but by his influencing events and decisions slowly and in unseen ways. Situations will change for you and doors will open through your prayers to him.”
So Ganesh can’t speak directly to me..? Also – having to concentrate my mind on the form of Ganesh – what does he look like..? So if you don’t know what he looks like – you can’t contact him..? I have found an image online – but concentrating on a boy with the head of an elephant sitting on a rodent is proving quite difficult. It says he answers slowly through changes of events..? (Is a week going to be too quick for Ganesh..?) My God the true God can act quickly if needed… for nothing is impossible for him – he is the creator of all.
Remember – this challenge was for you who don’t believe in any God – I already believe in God so I don’t need to seek after anything else…
All the best…
Phil.
February 13th, 2009 at 12:13
Hi phil
I’m glad to see you gathering evidence thats a great habit to keep up. However, if I’m not mistaken I can summarise that what you have done is research the evidence and you simply find it ridiculous to believe in the existence of Ganesh.
You just dont believe in him. At all. Its just not true.
Funny that – because, thats the way I feel about your god – all gods in fact. It seems that we do share disbelief. When it comes to Ganesh – Phil, youre an non-believer.
When it comes to all gods, I’m a non-believer.
February 13th, 2009 at 13:12
Hi Johnnyess…
Atheists marginalised..?
Have you not seen these recent news stories..?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4590870/Primary-school-receptionist-facing-sack-after-daughter-talks-about-Jesus-to-classmate.html
and…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4446935/Nurses-prayer-suspension-Sign-petition-for-Caroline-Petrie-here.html
So we are not even allowed to show love and concern to others by offering prayer for fear of losing our jobs now!!
I find this really interesting when in America their health service has actually been doing some clinical studies into the healing power of prayer with some signs that it works – see my other posts with links…
So maybe as an Atheist living in 2009 you are not quite so marginalised after all.
Phil.
February 13th, 2009 at 13:24
Ganesh? When did the conversation turn around to the existence of Ganesh. I thought we were talking about God Almighty…Maker of heaven and earth!!
anyway – something interesting to ponder. 1 – the bible is the only ‘holy book’ of all the religions in the world that contains prophecy. 2 – nineteen books of the bible are basically prophetic. 3 -With the Birth and Death and Resurrection of Jesus, more than 50 old testament prophecies were fulfilled. Most of them being written 700 years before and some 3000 years. Apparantly, the odds are billions to one.
We can then with great certainty say that the prophecies in the new testament will ALSO be fulfilled. Oi – we live in exciting times!!
February 13th, 2009 at 14:15
Hi Werner,
I was interested in your disbelief. You keep trying to get us to believe in your god. So, I’ll keep trying to get you to believe in a god you dont believe in.
By doing do, we’ve seen that you and phil are non-believers too. We share disbelief in Ganesh.
You find it ridiculous to believe in him. I just continue your thinking and find it riduculous to believe in any gods.
So, our discussion on Ganesh, Siva, Thor…. and all the other gods you dont believe in will always continue while you try to get us to believe in your god.
February 13th, 2009 at 14:22
Phil,
Hmm, earlier you said my criticism of ‘western european’ values and portrayals were obviously dumb (your word).
Now, you say (in reference to ganesh) – “So if you don’t know what he looks like – you can’t contact him..?
So, what does your god look like – you have a personal relationship with him – is he a white european, by any chance?
February 13th, 2009 at 14:39
Paul N…
My point was quite clear – The Hindu websites said that to contact Ganesh, you had to picture his form in your mind – which means you need to know what he looks like… Whereas to contact God you don’t have to picture him at all. No-one knows what God looks like – the white european ideas from religious paintings etc were normally images of Jesus – who we know would not have been a white european!!
Phil.
February 13th, 2009 at 14:43
eoin… are you a Hindu – Has Ganesh spoken to you and transformed your life..?
February 13th, 2009 at 14:51
It’s been (almost) a week since I took up the challenge. I’ve tried praying and believe it or not, even went to church this week! That was interesting. I’ve got to be honest, I can’t say I feel any different or feel like anyone has spoken to me and I’ve certainly not had any blinding lights coming from above. I have genuinely taken up your challenge, there’s still a few days left and I might consider church on Sunday again – where better a time and place to become a convert?
After the first few days of feeling quite sceptical and a little weirded out about praying, I genuinely tried talking to god but honestly, so far nothing has changed in my life, I feel no different than I did at the start of the week. Still, I’m being as open minded about this challenge as I possibly can be.
Will keep you updated.
February 13th, 2009 at 14:55
Hi Alistair,
Thank you for being so honest, upfront, and genuine about this challenge. I hope the weekend goes well for you. Yeh – go along to church on sunday – see what happens… I am impressed – you are a brave guy – doing something new like this!! Well done!!
Phil.
February 13th, 2009 at 15:18
So Phil,
You have a personal relationship with god. But, you’ve never seen him and don’t know what he looks like.
OK, what does his voice sound like? Do you actually hear a voice – or what? Does he speak English?
P.
February 13th, 2009 at 15:25
hi
if youre not happy using Ganesh for our discussions – then there are plenty of gods to choose from – see godchecker.com
and remember, people used to believe these gods existed.
February 14th, 2009 at 8:27
Phil,
The most highly regarded study into the effect of prayer was the MANTRA II study, which appeared in the Lancet. No statistical significant effect of prayer was found:
“Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterisation or percutaneous coronary intervention.”
This was a multi-centered, randomised trial, with multiple patients (748) – all crucial parts of the scientific method.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605669103/fulltext
I see prayer as the minds way of equiping yourself with hope. If it makes you feel good, please go ahead, however dont pray for me. Simply tell me you hope things will go well.
February 14th, 2009 at 12:33
Hi eoin,
I have read the linked article and have found a key issue…
“prayer by established congregations of various religions”
Those who had prayer were prayed for by various religions. Now as you know – I believe that there is only one true God and the only way to know him is by accepting him into your life (becoming a Christian). So this study can’t be used to show that Christian prayer doesn’t work as it was “various religions” who were praying – how many Christians were there..? It doesn’t say.
If you don’t believe in prayer or God then you won’t mind us praying for you..?
Have a great weekend,
Phil.
February 14th, 2009 at 12:54
phil #453
Had the nurse offered to pray for me I would have politely declined the offer, and not reported her unless she had become really offensive.
As for the child telling her little friend about hell, I blame whoever filled her mind with such poisonous nonsense in the first place (her mother?)
There seems to be no indication that the people who suspended these employees were themselves atheists.
I seem to recall that in the Duke University prayer experiment those who knew they were being prayed for got slightly worse. So if you must pray for people please don’t tell them.
February 14th, 2009 at 13:09
Hi Johhnyess, just thought I had better clear something up for those who may be reading this forum and not know about the story of the little girl in school…
The article in the Telegraph states:
“Her daughter Jasmine had been overheard by a teacher discussing heaven and God with a friend and had been pulled to one side and told off.”
So not talking hell and damnation etc!!
Here is the link again:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4590870/Primary-school-receptionist-facing-sack-after-daughter-talks-about-Jesus-to-classmate.html
Johnnyess also said:
“There seems to be no indication that the people who suspended these employees were themselves atheists.”
I didn’t say they were atheists – I was just making the point that although supposedly the uk is a Christian nation – you can get suspended for talking about Jesus or offering prayer.
Phil.
February 14th, 2009 at 13:29
Hi Phil,
The MANTRA II study did include Christians – see below. Your reply to the paper on prayer is a good example of selective reasoning. When other religions pray you claim its pointless and this doesnt work – however Christian prayer… well, now thats different. How do you provide a critique of this paper? – by faith and dogma. You disregard other religions and believe in yours……simply because that is what you believe.
You cant criticise a respected scientific paper in a journal as respected as the Lancet – by using *faith*.
The study include did include Christians – Charismatic Christian, Baptist and Catholic. Below are the churches involved in the primary group. There also was also a 2nd group which I havent shown. The study showed that prayer did not work.
Abundant Life Christian Center Charismatic Christian 30 Sanford, NC, USA
Baptist Prayer Congregations Baptist 30 Elkin and Durham, NC, USA
Carmelite Sisters Catholic 15 Towson, MD, USA
Kopan Monastery Buddhist 50 Kathmandu, Nepal
Nalanda Monastery Buddhist 150 Lavaur, France
Moravian Church Christian 15 Raleigh, NC, USA
Rifa’i-Marfi Sufi Muslim 10 Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Unity Church Unitarian 30 Unity Village, MO, USA
Virtual Jerusalem Jewish 10 Jerusalem, Israel
Rowan Christian Assembly Christian 1 Salisbury, NC, USA
Victory and Dominion Fellowship Christian 30 Kinston, NC, USA
Prayer Work Group Christian 10 Durham, NC, USA
Partners in Prayer Christian 5 Wake Forest, NC, USA
February 14th, 2009 at 14:53
Hi eoin,
I didn’t say that there were no Christians in this study and I wasn’t critiscing a “journal as respected as the Lancet”. I was merely saying that because this wasn’t a study specifically into Christian prayer it can’t be used to prove that Christian prayer doesn’t work.
I have seen with my own eyes people healed physically and drug addicts saved from addiction – alcholics lives turned around – all through prayer and God working in thier lives. Yes, maybe I can’t prove this on paper with medical proof – but I know it has happened.
So maybe if seeing is believing for you – I could pray that you would see God move in your life or your family and friends etc… so you can see he is real. Maybe you could email to Werners hotmail email some prayer requests like I have suggested earlier..?
Thanks, Phil.
February 14th, 2009 at 15:00
Hi Alastair – (sorry, I have realised I have been spelling your name wrong!!)
Just thought it would be good to tell you that many many Christian friends are praying for you as you seek to find out if God is real. From musicians to designers, from mum’s to people in government, from business owners to radio dj’s the list goes on.
We are praying for you (and the other members of this forum) because we want you to see that you are special, that you are not a mistake, that God made you and loves you and wants the best for you. I hope that know this doesn’t freak you out!! I hope that this encourages you in your journey of discovery!!
Thanks, Phil.
February 14th, 2009 at 19:44
Hi Phil,
“I was merely saying that because this wasn’t a study specifically into Christian prayer it can’t be used to prove that Christian prayer doesn’t work.”
Why?
Why cant a randomised, controlled trial which includes a range of different Christian Churches be used to study if Christian prayer?
You cant set criteria for an experiment just because you dont like the result. The study included a range of different religion – there was no prejudice or favouritism. I am sure if the study *had* demonstrated some slight positive result – you would have jumped on it immediately.
“I have seen with my own eyes people healed physically and drug addicts saved from addiction – alcholics lives turned around – all through prayer and God working in thier lives”
Phil, SEEING something is NOT proof. Even if, the whole of your church – say 100s of people saw this – it is still not proof. You need to deal with the difference between correlation and causality.
When you do something (ie pray) and there is a “result” ( ie person is healed physically) – you need to prove what you “did” was the direct cause of what happened and not something else that happened ie was what you did simply correlated to the result? It is extremely important to understand the difference.
Causal proof would show that prayer in some way had a particular molecular level effect on the disease of the person. Then, you would need to prove that molecular level effect led to a cure.
February 14th, 2009 at 20:28
Phil # 466
Well, Phil, the Telegraph chose not to mention Hell on Thursday 12th (why not, I wonder? Selective reporting? The Telegraph has a distinct Christian bias, as I’m sure you’ve noticed) but got around to doing so on Friday 13th:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4604205/Archbishop-speaks-in-support-of-primary-school-receptionist-facing-sack.html
February 14th, 2009 at 22:32
eoin…
Weither these healings I have seen and know about were or were not down to prayer – something would have had to happen at a molecular level for the healings to take place. Is it just coincidence that these healings happened at the same time as prayers were said for them..? If that is the case then I and friends of mine must be the luckiest people on the planet to have witnessed so many natural healings or that many coincidences!!
I doubt we could ever get causal proof to show you that prayer can cause molecular change, because I think you would just put every prayer that seemed to work down to coincidence…
Phil.
February 14th, 2009 at 22:47
Hi Johnnyess,
Well spotted, I hadn’t seen fridays article – well done!! Although, there are 2 sides to this…
“The school has insisted the Jasmine was threatening an older girl, saying that she would “go to hell” if she didn’t believe in God.”
and…
“Mrs Cain denied that her daughter had “frightened” another student by telling her she would go to hell. She said Jasmine had been discussing God and going to Heaven with a friend, when an older girl joined in and asked “so how do you get into Hell then”. Mrs Cain claimed her daughter then replied: “By not believing in Jesus,” but added she never mentioned the words herself.
So two sides – who’s side is factual – don’t know.
But if you remember – the reason for me posting these newspaper articles was not to argue about what the little girl said or didn’t say – it was to show that by speaking about your Christian faith (or offering prayer like the nurse) you can now end up having disciplinary action taken against you!!
Thanks, Phil.
February 14th, 2009 at 22:58
Phil,
Regarding these spiritual healings that you’ve been involved in, has the healing occurred immediately – literally in front of your eyes – or over time? Ie. did a limb, (or perhaps just a limp!) grow back (or cease to exist!)? You didn’t give any specifics on what kind of physical problems had been cured by prayer.
As far as drug addicts or alcoholics being cured by prayer, I don’t doubt this is possible – not necessarily the actual act of the prayer but a person being so affected and so overwhelmed by the occasion that their addiction doesn’t seem important in their lives any longer.
Still no revelation here.
February 14th, 2009 at 23:30
Mrs Cain implicitly admits that she had taught her toddler that if she didn’t believe in Jesus she would go to Hell. Indoctrination? Brainwashing? What would you call it? What would you call it if a child of 5 or 6 was taught that the truth was socialism or conservatism, or fascism or communism, or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism? And moreover, that anybody who didn’t accept that as the truth would go to Hell? Such fundamentalists are being marginalised? Well, about time, perhaps.
February 15th, 2009 at 0:32
Hi Phil,
“Is it just coincidence that these healings happened at the same time as prayers were said for them..? If that is the case then I and friends of mine must be the luckiest people on the planet to have witnessed so many natural healings or that many coincidences!!”
Youve struck the heart of the matter. Is it just coincidence or…. is it something else – i dont know.
However, to assert something you need statistically significant *causal* proof – simply saying “I have witnessed so many natural healings” is NOT enough. It is crucial you appreciate this. “Seeing” something is not proof.
“I doubt we could ever get causal proof to show you that prayer can cause molecular change, because I think you would just put every prayer that seemed to work down to coincidence…”
Agreed.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:19
You guys have been busy…
Right – # 463, 467, 470 – one cannot put God in a box – or in some ‘experiment’ to prove His (or prayer’s) existence. let me tell you something. For the person to be healed by prayer – that person must also believe, in faith, that Jesus can heal him/her. It’s not a quick fix to a problem that we can ‘bottle’ in some lab.
# 472 – agreed with Phil – cannot just be coincidence.
You want ‘proof’ – like i said, go to Ellel ministries – there in the uk (do a google search) and check out when the next healing and deliverance service will be in your area. go and attend and you will have your ‘proof’.
May you all have a fantastic week! God Bless.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:53
Hi Werner,
“one cannot put God in a box – or in some ‘experiment’ to prove His (or prayer’s) existence. ”
“You want ‘proof’ – like i said, go to Ellel ministries – there in the uk and check out when the next healing and deliverance service will be in your area. go and attend and you will have your ‘proof’.”
This is total nonsence – if you want to claim that event A is the cause of event B – you need CAUSAL proof. Simply going to “Ellel ministries and SEEING” is NOT enough.
I’ll repeat that – SEEING something with your own eyes is NOT PROOF. I’m sure it is sufficent for your prayer group – outside in the real world it is not.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:05
Hi Eoin.
So let’s say you are walking next to the street – and a car comes speeding by, hits someone who does a backflip over the car, lands on his feet and walks off. You saw the whole thing – but cannot prove it. you know it’s real but no one believes you. YOU SAW IT, so you know it’s real. If, however you were not in the area you would not have seen it. If you were wearing a blind fold you would not have seen it. if you were looking down you would not have seen it. I agree – to prove to the ‘world’ you need causal proof. To prove it to YOUR HEART you just need to see it. No one is going to believe you anyway – but you know it’s real.
that’s why i suggested Ellel ministries. You don’t need to prove it to the world – YOU just need to know it’s real.
Blessings.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:43
Hi Werner
Fantastic example – one that I take on with relish….So, a car accident – how does this fit in with my idea of ‘causal proof’
Well, if I was the only witness, how could I find evidence?….
- Cameras – many accidents appear on cctv and this is commonly used as ‘criminal court’ evidence.
- Tyre marks on road – I’m not an expert in forensics but I remember from my uni days that the trajectory of a skid mark can show the speed and direction of a car.
- Injury on the patient – X-rays will provide evidence of injury. It may also show the stance of the patient as the car hit them.
- Damage to car – again this can often demonstrate the direction/speed of the car.
and so on….
The point with causal proof is that you have sufficient evidence to say the accident is the CAUSE for the patients injuries. In fact, often in some criminal cases – causal proof becomes the discussion. Sometimes, a victim will claim an particular injury resulted from the accident – however there is not enough causal proof for this. Maybe they had that injury *before* the accident and want to get a payout?!
A car accident provides PLENTY of causal proof. Prayer does not. Oh, and I prove nothing to my heart. Causal proof is debated in my mind.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:33
He Eoin.
Your not a lawyer by any chance are you…
Look, i’m not trying to debate on the ‘facts’ of prayer etc. all i am saying is that if you saw something happening for yourself you would believe it wouldn’t you? If you knew someone who had been blind all their life, and after prayer that person can see again – and you saw the whole thing – you would believe it wont you? Now, all i’m saying is that you won’t be able to see all these things if you don’t go where these things regularly occur…. where do you go for your causal proof – to the accident scene right? So – if we want to see – we have to visit the scene – where the healing takes place – The Church…
cheers.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:44
Hi Alastair,
I hope your weekend went well and that you enjoyed you time at Church. Remember that I said lots of people are praying for you as you seek God..? Well one of those people has contacted me and said (this may seem weird – but stick with it!!) that whilst they were praying God set a verse from the bible on their mind which was “Daniel chapter 10 verse 12″. They didn’t know what it said – so they looked in their bible and this is what it says:
“Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.”
So, I don’t know what has happened over this weekend for you – weither in your opinion God has turned up, or not..? BUT, because you have genuinely come to seek God this week… He has heard your words and will respond to them!! Just wait and see – don’t give up!! He loves you…
Phil.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:22
Phil,
I really want to pursue how god actually makes contact. You’ve already said that you don’t actually see him, and I’m assuming it’s not ‘voices in the head’ since in your last post you mentioned that “God set a verse from the bible on their mind“.
It’s all a bit vague. How does someone know when a thought is not just their own – rather than one ’set in their mind’ by your god – or even some other god?
You’ve previously said that obedience to your god is the crucial thing – would you kill someone having had that thought ’set in your mind by god’?
Really, if you want to have any hope of convincing people like me to bother wasting a nanosecond on trying your challenge, you’ve got to give us some concrete idea on how to decide between thoughts.
Paul.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:55
Hi Paul N,
‘voices in the head’ – well yes, God can speak directly to you as audible voice. But he can also speak in many other ways too, such as words of knowledge… Now this is an interesting one – say I had never met you before – but you were really struggling with something in your life, or you needed to know what decision to make about something really important etc… God could give me a word of knowledge about that situation for you that humanly I could not have known about, with infinite details that would be impossible for me to have just guessed at. You see – God knows what is on our minds – what we are struggling with – what we need – he wants to meet our needs for our own good because he loves us.
Paul N also said:
“would you kill someone having had that thought ’set in your mind by god’?”
Come on Paul – we have been through this in other posts!! God is a God of love – not destruction – remember the Ten Commandments – “Do not murder”..?
Phil.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:22
Phil,
I’m trying to find out how you know your god has spoken to you and how you validate it.
OK you say you’ve literally heard the voice of god in your head. So, did he speak in English? What accent did he have – brummie, perhaps? Did he use any slang?
Also, re the ‘would you kill’ question – lot’s of people have ‘told by god’ to murder people (yorkshire ripper, for example).
I assume you’ll say they were misguided in some way but they will have the same kind of blind faith and unquestioning certainty that you display. I just want to know if you would react to Abraham’s predicament in the same way he did.
Paul
February 16th, 2009 at 20:00
Hi Werner,
you say..
“all i am saying is that if you saw something happening for yourself you would believe it wouldn’t you? If you knew someone who had been blind all their life, and after prayer that person can see again – and you saw the whole thing – you would believe it wont you? ”
Let me be clear – 100% No. Let me say it AGAIN – “SEEING IS NOT PROOF”. In the above example, I would investigate if the patient had been permanently blind, what molecular level changes in the eye during and after the prayer and I would carry out the same experiment on 100,000 other blind people to see if the same result occured.
Werner, we seem to have a problem with you fixating on “seeing” something and regarding it as evidence. I have tried to explain why this is wrong. Just because you SEE the prayer and there is a “result” DOES NOT mean the prayer is responsible for the result – you need statistically significant causal proof.
Here is an overview that may help:
http://www.stat.tamu.edu/stat30x/notes/node42.html
It ends will a good rule – “To establish causation, a designed experiment must be run.” ie SEEING is not proof.
February 17th, 2009 at 20:54
Phil? Werner?
Are you still there? We’re all beginning to miss you. Has Ganesh spoken?
Well, probably not. Who could believe in a boy with an elephant’s head? About as likely as a talking snake, or a virgin birth.
February 18th, 2009 at 0:19
Hi Johnnyess and all…
Nice to know you have been missing me (and Werner). Sorry – but work is busy at the moment and I haven’t had much chance to check these posts.
Hey – me and Werner may not be available to talk all the time – but I know someone who is… God longs to speak to you, to know you, you can talk to him anytime, anywhere!!
Phil.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:11
Hi Phil,
Another point – not only do you believe in a particular ‘god’ (not Ganesh) but you also believe that it “longs to speak to you, to know you” and that “you can talk to him anytime, anywhere!!”
So not only do you believe in its existence but you know its thoughts too? Where is your causal proof for that? Please dont offer bible quotes – that gets us nowhere.
Werner – our discussion on causal proof – have you read the summary I provided to you? You could also telephone any academic in economics, statistics or science in any reasonable university. They all deal with correlation vs causality and could give you a brief introduction.
February 18th, 2009 at 14:22
eoin, so where is the causal proof that CAM therapies work (acupuncture / herbal / crystal / magnetic therapies etc)..? As far as I can tell the studies that have been done are mainly inconclusive… but many people still use them and are refered by various faculties of the NHS..? So on this evidence can the NHS refer people to Christian prayer as a therapy..?
Who is going to fund the study into prayer with 100,000 blind people..? How long is this going to take..? I don’t think anyone is going to fund this sort of research… so does that mean prayer doesn’t work – no – it just means that you can’t have your causal evidence.
Phil.
February 18th, 2009 at 14:24
Phil,
Crystal healing, magnetic therapies etc. are all as much a crock of crap and have no respect in scientific communities. If I was referred by an NHS doctor to have those kind of treatments, I’d ask them to try again.
February 18th, 2009 at 14:35
Hi Phil,
I couldnt have picked a better example myself. There is NO causal proof that alternative methods work.
Its interesting that you bring it up as example to compare to religion. People gain solace from the fact that a crystal or a god might help them in some way.
However, there is no CAUSAL proof.
Good example.
February 18th, 2009 at 14:47
As I understand it, when an alternative form of medicine is proved to work it ceases to be “alternative” and becomes an accepted form of medicine. Not before.
February 18th, 2009 at 14:49
Phil, you say:- ‘so where is the causal proof that CAM therapies work..?‘ – there isn’t any. They rely on the same sort of reasoning as you do.
Then :- ‘I don’t think anyone is going to fund this sort of research‘. No, of course not. An atheist wouldn’t because he would consider it a complete waste of time and money, and a theist wouldn’t because evidence is actually irrelevant to faith, and searching for it might actually be considered ‘unfaithful’.
P
February 18th, 2009 at 15:17
Hi Phil,
We’re definitely making progress here.
“so does that mean prayer doesn’t work – no – it just means that you can’t have your causal evidence.”
Yes, youre right I dont have any causal evidence – so I dont believe your argument. 100,000 people would be ideal – but I’d be curious with a smaller sample as long as the scientific method is applied.
So yes, no evidence as of yet that prayer works. However, many academics are still investigating this – some religious, some atheist. There are also studies using MRI resonance to identify the area of the brain that gets activated during prayer.
So, prayer may not work. But we may get interesting data on why humans have done it for 10s of thousands of years.
February 18th, 2009 at 15:26
Wow – that got you all talking and yes I agree with your posts!! Hey – we agree on something!!
eoin: As I have said in a previous post – I don’t think you will ever believe in the power of prayer to God, as you would put any possible causal proof (as we don’t have funds to do large scale research) down to coincedence. I think the only way you will believe is for God to show you he is real. One day your causal proof and rational reasoning will be challenged and you will have to rethink what you believe to be true.
I am not on this forum to argue with you all, and I am sure Werner would agree – we are on here because we care for you and want you to realise that God loves you.
Alastair – great to hear from you.
Phil.
February 18th, 2009 at 16:11
Hey guys, have a look at this when you have time… It is an article in the Times Newspaper by an Atheist who has seen how belief in God has transformed peoples lives in Africa… very interesting…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.ece
Thanks, Phil.
February 18th, 2009 at 17:31
Hi Phil,
“I am not on this forum to argue with you all, and I am sure Werner would agree – we are on here because we care for you and want you to realise that God loves you.”
I understand your stated aim. However, in responce I ask for causal proof and you have none – ALL you can do is to provide your own SUBJECTIVE experience. As Ive said many times – this is not proof, therefore I fear your aim becomes somewhat redundant.
February 18th, 2009 at 19:31
Hi all
sorry – been out of town with a laptop and no power cable – so limited time and overloaded with work.
What if something happened to you and you were healed – would you believe then….
Thanks PHil – yes – we are here because we care deeply for you guys and don’t want anyone to be lost. How is it going with those challenges.
Eoin – the conversation about causal proof will go on for all centuries. What i saw i believe, i know the people personally – and i don’t need to write a discertation on it
Great discussions – i’ll be back on Friday on a regular basis.
Blessings in Christ.
February 18th, 2009 at 21:08
I meant to post earlier about my challenge, but this week has been a bit of a hectic one!
Anyway, it was an interesting challenge and I went through a few different emotions but I’ve got to be honest, and I did genuinely approach this challenge with an open mind , and despite going to church twice (interesting experience – different to how I remember church being as a kid), I’ve simply not had any revelation. Literally, despite my attempts at praying, I didn’t feel remotely like anyone was listening (perhaps the neighbours, but that’s it) and certainly didn’t feel like I had any response to those prayers. I feel no different and no more enlightened than I did prior to this exercise.
I’m not going to say “well, I didn’t feel anything so you must be imagining it”. I find it hard to believe that so many people are “imagining” god speaking to them, but I’m still unconvinced, perhaps more so in fact, of any higher being or power.
The more I think about it, the more I just find the idea of a god so unreasonable as to be beyond doubt.
Anyway, it was an interesting week and not something I regret trying out but for me, no cigar.
Alastair