ASA Calls It For Us!
22.01.09 | Ariane |
The UK Advertising Standards Authority has ruled in our favour, decided not to investigate the 326 complaints about the Atheist Bus Campaign adverts, and closed the case. Hurray!
It’s a great day for freedom of speech in Britain. Atheists are officially allowed to be represented in public for the very first time (adverts are not pre-vetted by legal organisations before they go up) and a rational counter-view can now be visible at any point to balance out evangelical advertising.
Most people have recognised that ours is a gentle, philosophical advert aimed at non-believers and fearful agnostics. We’re really pleased that the ASA has recognised this too. At last, we have a truly free voice – and it feels good.
January 26th, 2009 at 9:35
Nice one johnnyesS. The essentials of atheism in just 6 lines! I wonder why the religiosi can’t be so succinct? (See answer below)
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Because they have to disguise their lack of a proper argument with verbiosity.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:30
“The essentials of atheism in just 6 lines! I wonder why the religiosi can’t be so succinct.”
God cannot be summed up in a few lines, paragraphs or book. You are asking me for evidence but i have told you i cannot get into a theological debate about this.
All i am saying to you all is, if you want to know the TRUTH. you must really desire and seek it.
IF you do, then call out to Jesus to show you the way and start to follow HIS ways. If after six months you have had no supernatural experience then come back to me.
I was into Drug dealing and Violence, and Jesus Christ saved me, I dont need to prove it, But i would love for you to experience it.
Love is an action.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:10
Christian, when you are ready to call out to Odin he will still be there waiting for you.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:21
@Christian
Sorry but ‘I dont need to prove it’ = ‘I can’t prove it’
It’s not that I expected you to as it’s impossible to right? Just as impossible as it is for me to say with 100% certainty that some supernatural (however you define that!) power/force/being does not exist. One other thing though, I’m glad you turned your life around but you should know that it was you, your will power and determination that made that change. You don’t need a ‘higher power’, you’re obviously strong enough on your own so don’t sell yourself short.
January 26th, 2009 at 13:07
Christian,
If you were at rock bottom and your brain really desired to find a supernatural being to send telepathic help rays to you, is it any wonder you came to believe it was so?
Is it also any wonder for you to have picked the most popular god in your society to believe in? Would you have found Jesus if you were going through difficult times in say, ancient Egypt – or would it have been the sun god Ra you found? Ask yourself that, and be honest.
If you’d be skeptical about Krishna existing just because a Hindu overcame difficult times, you have to be skeptical about your own experience. In fact, people of all different religious backgrounds have done the exact same thing as you – do all their gods exist, or are they sincere yet mistaken individuals who had certain misplaced feelings which helped them out?
Applying the same critical thinking to your own feelings is the honest thing to do. Either you struck lucky and happened to seek out the correct god and religion out of the thousands available and were given help which could have been got by just having a belief in a higher power – as all the other religious people have demonstrated – or you’re just as convinced as they are, but also just as wrong.
One look at an optical illusion will show you how easy it is to trick the human mind. This is why critical thinking is essential if you really desire to seek truth.
January 26th, 2009 at 15:13
Reply to Comment #37
To Danny,
It is obvious. Only the things of higher value can stand on their own. Atheism is such a ridiculous thing that it has no alternative than originating out of its opposite. It can’t have an ORIGIN of its own.
Reply to Comment #38
To Chris,
Is that my proof ? Yes, why shouldn’t it be ? It clearly shows that the atheists who claim to be the whole & sole defenders of scientific temper are, in reality, hopelessly nonscientific in nature. It doesn’t make any difference whether some theists – pseudo theists, I presume – are working on that silly project LHC or not.
Now regarding that atheist delusion promoted as “Evolution Theory” : The stuff presented as scientifically verifiable evidence by anthropology kids clearly indicates that atheist morons do not know what scientifically verifiable data is. Failure to prove your scientific temper is sufficient enough to disqualify you for participating in the discussion regarding existence of God. Those, who cannot understand basic science, do not have the capacity to Realise God.
Reply to Comment #45
To Christian,
I agree with your statement that “Either beleive or dont beleive, but if you make the wrong decision, it will affect you.”
There is just One & only one omnipotent God & He resides at the point of absolute Truth. In my opinion, your real Jesus Christ is one of the many parts of that omnipotent Almighty. By using your personal relationship with real Jesus Christ, is it possible for you to verify whether that real Jesus Christ has given consent to Indo-US nuke deal ? If answer is “no” then your real Jesus Christ is closer to Truth. If answer is “yes” then other parts of that omnipotent God are likely to be closer to Truth than your real Jesus Christ.
January 26th, 2009 at 16:35
Samir,
Are you writing your posts in another language and running them through the Google translator before posting them here?
January 26th, 2009 at 16:37
Of course atheism originates out of its opposite; its sole purpose is to leave the shit behind. Religion too has equal origin – but got us into the shit in the first place. Unlike most atheists I’ve known, I’ve never regarded religious ideas as primitive, but as derivative and degenerate. Positive knowledge must come first. Pass it on and what a travesty comes out at the end.
_____
January 26th, 2009 at 17:18
@Samir
Two things, firstly your reply to Danny. You say that atheism depends on its opposite? Well, the word may have been first used as an insult relating to non-belief, but the idea itself certainly doesn’t require belief to exist. So, I believe that the theory of evolution explains our origin from a simple, single celled (or in fact, even more basic but I’ll not go in to that) starting point, and as such, it doesn’t make sense to assert that belief came before non-belief. When exactly did everyone start believing in God? At what point did it become the default state of mind? Even if you don’t subscribe to evolution and prefer the creationist explanation, surely when Adam was first created, he had no knowledge of any god until that god spoke to him or showed that he existed in some other way. So – Adam was, very briefly, an atheist.
Secondly, to your ‘proof’. What exactly is your scientific objection to the LHC project at Cern? All your proof seems to consist of is personal opinion. Also – I think we have different definitions of what you call scientifically verifiable evidence. Are you a scientist by training? In fact, I challenge everyone reading this to give me your definition of a ’scientific theory’. Don’t just use Google or an online dictionary, this isn’t about proving yourselves. I’m not pretending to have exactly the right definition either, but I’m curious to see what you come up with.
January 26th, 2009 at 17:42
@ Chris J: “This is why critical thinking is essential if you really desire to seek truth.”
That’s what I have done with the Bible, I don’t want to believe in rubbish so I checked it out. To me the Bible solves the riddle of why we are here. Which painter steps up to a canvas without an objective, which architect has no objective when designing a building, who designs a universe with an objective? Isaiah 45:18 “For thus said Yahwew, Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim (God), Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: ‘I am Yahweh, and there is none else.’”
@ Chris: “I disagree that Christianity and Islam are polar opposites. Why so you think that’s the case? Surely the Koran and Bible share rather a large amount of material as they’re both Abrahamic religions.”
Once a person studies the Islamic scriptures and the life of Muhammad its quite clear that Muhammad plagiariased the material he purchased from the Jews, he stole Bible stories to provide some authentication to his deeds and to try prove to the Jews that he is their Messiah, you’ll notice as they reject him he becomes ever more violent towards them and Christians (read: Westerners). Islam is prophecied many times in Scripture (read: Pslam 83 for example), plus Islam comes from the descendents of Ishmael, Abraham’s son from his slave-girl. Muhammad saw it fit to break every one of the 10 Commandments, he was everything the Bible said one shouldn’t be. If you have time you should read Prophet of Doom by Craig Winn.
@ Chris: “We certainly do agree though when you say ‘The thing is the Church require blind faith, and that’s not a good thing’, but this seems at odds with the rest of your comment about how you came ‘to the knowledge that God wants us to use our brains, see if He’s telling the truth or not. He actually wants us to know with certainty that He exists, and then with that certainty we trust Him to provide eternal salvation as promised’. How exactly did you acquire this knowledge with any degree of certainty?”
Let’s take for example the Genesis creation account, most churches of today teach a 6 day (24hr/day) literal creation, in this case it would be blind faith, going against every bit of evidence to the contrary. But I am certain Genesis is in perfect sync with scientific findings of an old universe, therefore I am convinced it is speaking the truth, added to that is accuracy in history, prophecy and spirituality so it doesn’t become such a big leap to believe Yahweh for my salvation. Note: I don’t believe Adam was the first human on earth, but the first human to of been given the Breath of Life, that which set him apart from other humans, having a conscience, being able to choose between right and wrong, to learn language, to communicate on a deep level and most of all being able to love which requires being able to make choices.
@ Chris: “Finally, the development of the rules of society that are enshrined in many religions from non-religious roots has always seemed pretty clear to me. So imagine you live in a tribe, competing with other tribes for the same resources. By deciding as a tribe that it’s a good idea not to kill others (except during tribal warfare) is beneficial to everyone in the tribe. Sure – you lose the freedom to kill your neighbour and steal their possessions, but that loss is far outweighed by the lower risk of your neighbour killing you! And of course, the whole tribe benefits from this agreement, meaning it will be more successful than it’s neighbours (who are too busy killing each other to defend themselves) and expand, spreading the idea with them. If you look at the basic moral rules we live by, in the end, they exist for selfish reasons.”
In other words its not about wrong or right, which humanism preaches, but about convenience and inconvenience. When I study Humanism I find that its main aim is to prevent people from using their judgement, searing their consciences, making it impossible for them to distinguish between a truth and a lie. Humanism teaches tolerance of other peoples beliefs, such as Islam, which to me is a serious mistake. Humanism together with media teaches people to shut up and not speak out against Islam (the other tribe), whereas Islam demands that nonbelievers either submit to Islam or face death. Islam is currently using Humanism to their advantage, they’re playing the Human Rights card, and eventually when they get big enough they’ll simply enforce their way of life, submit or die. Humanists aren’t aware that the Islamic scriptures teach it’s OK to lie, to make false peace treaties in order to strengthen themselves and attack at a later stage even if it means breaking the peace treaty. Read about the peace treaty of Hudaybiyah, it gives Muslims the right to fake peace in order to become stronger and then retaliate, it’s no wonder that Yasser Arafat referred to it when pledging reforms and elections to the Palestinian Legislative Council and peace to Israel. Terrorists aren’t the problem but the religion of Islam is, and it’s roots are in the Quran.
@ Chris J: “Why did he create a planet full of pain and suffering, then blame it on us? Afterall, it had nothing to do with ‘man’s fall’ if man wasn’t even around… If your god is against abortion, why did he create a world in which miscarriages would kill even more babies?”
Of course, with our poor decisions let’s blame God?! It comes down to free-will, God told what would happen if we choose Him and what would happen if we did not. It’s our choices. People wonder why societies are dysfunctional, but society of today encourages unbridled sexual relationsips, encourages promiscuity, gives more human rights to the criminal rather than than the victim, encourages poor eating habits, puts no curb on garbage spewed out over media, encourages the growth of many different religions, encourages greed, lust and selfish ambitions, governments remain blind to laboratries who design products from cosmetics to food with harmful chemicals which poison us, etc. etc. So the who’s to blame? Man or God? You can teach your child what to do, but at the end of the day he has his own mind and makes his own choices. God’s Word is full of advice but Man reckons it’s irrelevant in the 21st century. I can understand this view but it stems from a lack of understanding the true nature of the Scriptures. For exampe, people (even some Christians) laugh when the Bible says in Deuteronomy 23:12-13 “And you shall have a place outside the camp, where you shall go out, and you shall have a sharp implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your excrement.” But do a quick study on war deaths and we find a great percentage of deaths are caused by diseases due to poor sanitation, open wounds with someone doing a dunk nearby is not good. Was God being stupid? No, in fact today we know why He told us, because He created germs and knows how they operate. What about foods in which He said there are animals we can and animals we cannot eat? Studies show us that unclean animals are far more prone to toxins than clean animals. God knows our bodies and what’s best for us, yet we see it fine to eat junk all day long, backed by a society who encourages it, and then we see it fit to blame it on God because our reproduction systems fail and we have miscarriages. I’m not saying eating poorly is to blame, but it’s the principle of rejecting Yahweh that counts. He loves us and wrote a whole book detailing everything, from how to look after ourselves to what would even happen in the world. We have no excuse when things fail.
@ Richard: “I think the only difference we can ask is whether the type of belief that says that all humans are sinful and must be saved is better or worse than, say, the belief that all humans are inherently divine and just need to find this. Whichever way you look at it the direction of change is the same. The difference seems to be in what each of these beliefs encourages you to think about others. I prefer the idea of humans being inherently divine – all of us being capable of good within ourselves. I know real life is actually quite complex with a real mix. Why are we arguing this anyway? Where is the real proof that any form of god exists, whether Jehova or Brahman? All we can know is that certain patterns in life seem to work. There are certain ideas that actually seem common across religions if you look in the right places and I believe stand independently of religion. Surely just caring for others, not being greedy, all these things are more important than which if any god you worship.”
To me the Scriptures do the trick of proving God’s existence, added to that is Him being personal in my life and I can see Him working in me. And concerning “certain patterns in life seem to work” you’ll notice the Scriptures laid it all down long ago, it teaches us how to be productive, how to live healthy, how to love our neighbour, how to be morally good, and how to establish a justice system that works. Man hates being responsible for his actions, therefore he rejects God or denies that He even exists, all because of his quest for power, sex and money which causes him a lot of strife and misery.
The major problem I have with humanism is that they promote the idea that a person is not accountable for their actions to a God, therefore this means humanists can do whatever (I’m stressing the word whatever) they wish without any fear of judgement. And this is very dangerous.
To all of you: Would you guys (humanists/atheists) consider Adam Weishaupt the father of Humanism?
January 26th, 2009 at 18:02
It should be obvious that I was subsuming the concepts of antitheism and nontheism under the single atheism. Religious ideas arising out of nontheism through a process of symbolism and semantic blunder – antitheism at last our way of pulling the chain.
_____
January 26th, 2009 at 18:46
Matthew,
Do you know what happened between just after the big bang and now? How the first stars formed, how heavier elements were created within the stars and sent out, how planets form, and how life goes from very simple beginnings to more complex results given enough time? There are natural explanations for it all, and several places you could find them. None require a god.
If you want to mistakenly choose a god who designed it all, why pick the Biblical one and none of the others? The Genesis creation account doesn’t help, seeing as it says the sun and stars came after the Earth, that Adam named all the animals and that there was a talking snake. You ignore some parts, turn others into metaphors (with no justification) and twist verses in so many ways just to have it make sense to you.
As I’ve made clear a couple of times now, man cannot be held accountable for all the evils of the world when they existed BEFORE man evolved. Is it the fault of humanity that there are earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis? Disease existed BEFORE man evolved. Some babies are born with disease – how is it their fault? You can blame the parents, but again, why set up a system in which the innocent would suffer because of others? You have to blame your god for that. You cannot get away with saying it’s man’s fault, not if you accept the real age of the planet and the late arrival of man. The question remains unanswered.
The Deuteronomy passage you speak about was written when the Babylonians had already invented plumbing to take away waste. Surely the creator of the univere would have known about that, instead of telling his people to cover it up with dirt like the other animals.
While humans can do much to improve their chances of a healthy life, the point is that you have to accept if your god exists, he created all the problems to start with. He could have made it so we’d lose weight if we ate lots of chocolate. He could have made it so we’d die naturally without pain. Is it man’s fault so many of us succumb to a slow, painful end to our lives? If so, how so? It’s just natural that the human body deteriorates after a time. Natural in my eyes, but for you, you’d have to blame your god.
You failed to even address the question of what Jesus died for if not original sin (as the Bible very clearly states). If one man was given the breath of life and failed God 6000 years ago (if you believe it to be longer, explain away the genealogical line from Adam to Jesus) it still means most of us are not his descendants. Humans had already spread far and wide.
Also, if you honestly think we should get our morality from the Bible, then you can’t have read it all. I don’t feel like forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, or stoning disobedient children. Whether that was meant for our time or then, both those rules (and plenty of others) are still completely IMMORAL. You pick and choose.
January 26th, 2009 at 18:55
Matthew:
“The major problem I have with humanism is that they promote the idea that a person is not accountable for their actions to a God, therefore this means humanists can do whatever (I’m stressing the word whatever) they wish without any fear of judgement. And this is very dangerous.”
This statement is seriously flawed, based on false logic, and not supported by HO data on criminal statistics.
History has proved that there are many, many believers that are happy to break their own commandments when it suits them. Some believers may care little about what they do because they believe their gods will forgive them at “judgement”. It’s called an “abdication of responsibility” and it can be very dangerous.
There was little merit in the rest of your rambling post, which relies heavily on discredited and unreliable sources. I’m not surprised that you have still been unwilling (or unable) to give any evidence of your particular god, despite your earlier post insisting that such evidence was “strong”, as you seem incapable of rational discussion.
January 26th, 2009 at 20:04
Matthew
Have you ever considered the possibility that your god exists ONLY within the confines of your skull?
January 26th, 2009 at 20:10
Matthew, you say: ” its quite clear that Muhammad plagiariased the material he purchased from the Jews”
But all religions plagiarise from the earlier one. It is how religions evolve. Take the creation myth and you find that in Sumerian tablets as well. Take the Noah flood, you find it almost every where a civilization has come to be – because a civilization starts by a river and the river floods. Take virgin birth, and you find that even Buddha was the son of a virgin mother. Take son of god, and you find that all the Roman emperors, Alexander and pharaos of Egypt were sons of god. The myth that comes later is always a distortion of the earlier one with some additions and subtractions that suits the life-style of a particular society. I am really surprised that with all this knowledge available to us through history of religions, you can still claim that a certain myth is true. I will finish with a Dostoyevski quote: “Man has such a prediction for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny evidence of his senses only to justify his logic.”
January 26th, 2009 at 23:11
@Mathew who in post 15 suggests if only one reads the Bible in the original Hebrew it all becomes clear — I suppose one also needs to read the New Testament in its original Greek as well ? What nonsense. So God arranges it that in order to be properly convinced — and save one’s oul one must learn two ancient languages to properly understand his Word. Wow he really makes things easy!
January 26th, 2009 at 23:29
@Chris (I address each paragraph of Chris)
“Do you know what happened between just after the big bang and now? How the first stars formed, how heavier elements were created within the stars and sent out, how planets form, and how life goes from very simple beginnings to more complex results given enough time? There are natural explanations for it all, and several places you could find them. None require a god.”
I believe Yahweh (which means I Exist) released the exact amount of energy required to let all those things happen naturally. He even allowed a natural asteroid strike to wipe-out the dinosaurs to allow for the appearence of mammals from which man would come later. He doesn’t have to mention it the Genesis creation account, all we need to know is that on Day 5 that life first started in the sea and that large reptiles would also roam the earth during this epoch and only then did mammals show up in Day 6 of which man is the last on the scene.
“If you want to mistakenly choose a god who designed it all, why pick the Biblical one and none of the others? The Genesis creation account doesn’t help, seeing as it says the sun and stars came after the Earth, that Adam named all the animals and that there was a talking snake. You ignore some parts, turn others into metaphors (with no justification) and twist verses in so many ways just to have it make sense to you.”
I think I mentioned before why I chose Yahweh and not some other religion, like Islam or Humanism.
The word day in Hebrew is yowm which can mean “to be hot, warm, day, time period, year, sunrise to sunset, from sunrise to sunrise, or from sunset to sunset, a lifetime, an indefinite period in time, a generic temporal reference, today, yesterday, or tomorrow.” Day 4 is not of of sync, it just so happens that plant life in Day 3 produced oxgyen allowing for the sun, moon and stars to appear on Day 4, and only in Day 5 did animal life start to appear once sufficient oxgyen was available. Read the Scriptures closely and you’ll notice that God is telling us to look up on Day 4, to read the signs. The word “create” does not appear in the original text during the Day 4 account. The atmosphere went from being translucent to transparent during that epoch, ask any scientist about the early atmosphere of earth. Now here it gets interesting: Day 4 of millions of years ago also correlates with the years 3000-4000 (since the fall) on the Biblical calendar, or 2967 BCE -1967 BCE on the Gregorian calendar, we can say the 4th Millennium. Now during this stage of mankind’s history, since the fall of Adam, the prophet Isaiah named Satan (symbolosied by the lesser light, the fake light, moon) by name, that of Halal ben Shacher. And right towards the end of the 4th Millennium Yahushua (symbolised by the greater light, the source of light, the sun) was born. Not only is Day 4 of Genesis scientifcally accurate with the appearence (not creation) of the moon, stars and sun, but it is also prophetically accurate of the 4th Millennium in that Satan got named, it was also the period of all the prophets and Yahushua appeared. And in Day 6 of Creation man appeared last on the scene of all the major animals, and since the year 1033 CE (year 5000) until now the population of man and the religion of man has exploded and increased. You guys should read Gerald Schroeder’s Science of God and Craig Winn’s Yada Yahweh. Check out http://www.bethlehemstar.net/ about how the Magi read the stars and realised a Jewish king was to be born.
“As I’ve made clear a couple of times now, man cannot be held accountable for all the evils of the world when they existed BEFORE man evolved. Is it the fault of humanity that there are earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis? Disease existed BEFORE man evolved. Some babies are born with disease – how is it their fault? You can blame the parents, but again, why set up a system in which the innocent would suffer because of others? You have to blame your god for that. You cannot get away with saying it’s man’s fault, not if you accept the real age of the planet and the late arrival of man. The question remains unanswered.”
Death has always been a part of life, earthquakes have always been a part of life as are volcanoes, but broken families, ruined societies, disease ridden people, etc. can all be traced back to the behaviour of Man. The spread of AIDS can easily be stopped in its tracks, but no, Man cannot bridle his own passions and still continues to promote promiscuous behaviour. Poverty can easily be stopped, but trying to stop Man’s greed that’s causing it is another story. God simply said we reap what we sow, He even said we sow and other’s reap, so don’t be alarmed that parents with HIV pass on the virus to their child, and don’t blame it on God.
“The Deuteronomy passage you speak about was written when the Babylonians had already invented plumbing to take away waste. Surely the creator of the univere would have known about that, instead of telling his people to cover it up with dirt like the other animals.”
I’ll overlook what you’re saying here because at this time the Jews were wandering the Arabian Peninsula (not the Sinai Peninsula as commonly believed), but the principle still applies in that waste should be removed.
“While humans can do much to improve their chances of a healthy life, the point is that you have to accept if your god exists, he created all the problems to start with. He could have made it so we’d lose weight if we ate lots of chocolate. He could have made it so we’d die naturally without pain. Is it man’s fault so many of us succumb to a slow, painful end to our lives? If so, how so? It’s just natural that the human body deteriorates after a time. Natural in my eyes, but for you, you’d have to blame your god.”
Man has a history of blaming his actions on someone else, and yet not once do you find man being thankful for being given the gift of life. If it wasn’t for your nervous system you wouldn’t be walking, nor would you feel any pain to let you know that you’re burning yourself on the stove. For heavens sake, without a nervous system you wouldn’t be able to feel the pleasure of sex! Thank God for nervous systems!
“You failed to even address the question of what Jesus died for if not original sin (as the Bible very clearly states). If one man was given the breath of life and failed God 6000 years ago (if you believe it to be longer, explain away the genealogical line from Adam to Jesus) it still means most of us are not his descendants. Humans had already spread far and wide.”
This is where one really needs to study the history of mankind, plus a deep dig into Scripture. All living beings have a soul, but what makes man different is a conscience. Up until Adam mankind was just another animal, however slightly more intelligent than all other animals. Adam was singled out, and placed within a garden to have a relationship with God, God even saw it fit to come down to earth and personally walk with Adam. Once Adam chose evil instead of life, he got booted out and severed his personal relationship with the Creator. You’ll even notice that Cain was fearful of the nomadic wanderers (cavemen) that would kill him after he killed his brother. These sons of God (those with a conscience) from Adam’s line used there superior intelligence and took advantage of the daughters of men (cavemen), eventually they became really evil which resulted in Noah’s Flood which we gather to be caused by a natural event, namely a asteroid strike, which literally flooded the Middle East basin. Compelling evidence is the Burckle crater as well as the numerous flooding evidence in the area during that time. I don’t believe the whole world was flooded but that the land (misunderstanding on the Hebrew word eretz) where the story took place was completely flooded. The whole world would’ve been affected by it though. This gives possible reason to the hundreds of flood myths surrounding that time from across the globe all telling of a similar event. How many people today live without a conscience? Probably not many, maybe even none. Yahushua (errantly called Jesus) died so that He could impart His Spirit within us, so that we can stand before God. Our mortal bodies are not capable of eternal life, therefore God has provided a way for us to live eternally. But we first need to go through the act of choosing Him because then He’ll adopt us into His family, He only wants to be those who choose to be with Him, we inherit what He has because of our relationship to Him. You can’t earn salvation, doing good works won’t get it, nothing you can do to merit it, we’re simply not good enough, you can be Bono and do all these kind deeds but at the end of the day if you don’t want a relationship with Yahweh don’t be upset when He says to you at judgement day “Sorry, I don’t know you, and even though your works are great they have no meaning to me, you’re not my child, I only give my inheritance to those related to me!” You can choose to love or choose not to love. With doing good, there has to be the option of doing evil. Doing evil separates us from God, but now thankfully when we die His Spirit will protect us and raise us up at the last day. There’s always a way out.
“Also, if you honestly think we should get our morality from the Bible, then you can’t have read it all. I don’t feel like forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, or stoning disobedient children. Whether that was meant for our time or then, both those rules (and plenty of others) are still completely IMMORAL. You pick and choose.”
No Chris, people fail to understand Yahweh’s instructions. In the case of the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28) the unbetrothed girl can object to the marriage through her father, her father has the final say in the matter but one would need to read the rest of the Torah to figure that out. Laws like this keep rape and all forms of sexual activity outside of marriage to a minimum, but notice that if the rapist raped a betrothed virgin he was to suffer death (Deuteronomy 22:23-24). So the question is: is God concerned about sex or about betrayal? Healthy marriages and healthy families are the backbone of any society, God knew it and that’s why we are told these precepts. I won’t take a smack at your understanding of God’s Torah/Law, but will rather take a smack at Christians who don’t understand it and teach it errantly to the world at large. The precept in Deuteronomy 21:18-21 concerning stoning a disobedient son really puts teeth in the Fifth Commandment of honouring one’s parents. This son was a stubborn, rebellious, a glutton and drunkard, in other words up-to-no-good and it would lead to other people becoming like that if his behaviour was not stopped. The Torah creates a society that is devout, hard-working and respectful of God and man alike. Those who are rebellious, lazy, and self-indulgent don’t have a place, they are mischief makers. God’s Torah is not harsh, it’s all about restitution and not retribution. If fact you won’t find prisons mentioned in the Bible because God says the perpetrator must pay back what he stole and then some, in this case the criminal gets forgiven and the victim receives back what was stolen, in todays world the victim doesn’t receive his possessions back, the criminal gets put behind bars, and the taxpayers pay for it, while the justice system profits from it as well. God’s system is perfect, man’s system is costly and pathetic.
Man looks through a stained glass when reading the Word, obscuring its intended meaning. You guys should read The Owner’s Manual by Ken Power on how to understand the Law as it is intended.
January 26th, 2009 at 23:45
Oliver R:
Jeremiah 8:8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of Yahweh,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
Even the Bible tells us of errors worked in by people. Thankfully the Dead Sea Scrollls prove the Bible is still very similar to the originals, even over a period 2200 years. Unfortunately ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek are far richer in word meanings than English, one Hebrew usually has many more meanings and can often be translated incorrectly. It’s not that one loses a lot but in some cases one can lose an important revelation, and in some cases we lose the history of the word.
Thankfully with the Internet we have numerous tools to use at our disposal helping us to understand the meanings of words in their original format.
You can still know Yahweh without knowing the original languages.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:24
Matthew,
You mention the dinosaurs. Why would this god cause the dinosaurs to suffer and die out? In fact, why were they around in the first place if humans were his ultimate goal – the favourite species, the only ones who would be allowed eternal life?
The fifth day doesn’t mention any reptiles. In fact, on day six the animals were supposed to have come from the land, not the sea.
If a day doesn’t mean a day in Bible talk, why are an evening and morning mentioned? More metaphors? On the subject of stars, why does the Bible talk of stars falling to the Earth? It’s like God thinks stars are meteorites!
How do you know that day 4 of millions of years corresponds with the dates 3000-4000 BC? What key are you using?
I’d agree death and natural suffering has always been a part of life, and that some things are the fault of man. But I’d still call creating earthquakes and volcanoes an evil act, and part of the suffering man must endure. I hope you understand AIDS is a virus and that it infects anyone it comes into contact with – that straight people can get it, as can gay people. Just incase you were about to go down the ‘gays = AIDS’ argument, I think you’d better research that first. Again, saying others reap what we sow isn’t a very just thing. And your god saying it doesn’t make it just either. I don’t blame it on a god, because I don’t believe in one, but you’d have to blame it on your god – who else decided the innocent would reap what evil people sow? Your god, right?
Does it matter if God’s chosen people were wandering the desert? A click of the fingers and there could have been plumbing! Didn’t he stop the sun so that a battle could be won? Oh whoops, another Biblical mistake there, seeing as the Earth travels around the sun!
I want you to know, I am extremely happy to be alive. It means there had to be a continuous chain of life lasting billions of years just for me to be here – how lucky are we?! So to want more then seems rather selfish to me. I wish more people would be grateful for the life they have, rather than trying to justify a belief which claims they’re the best species on the planet and that they know how to live forever. Still, why create the suffering too?
Original sin – your god knows everything, apparently. So, did he know that out of all the humans he could have chosen to put a soul into, this Adam character would turn from him? Well, yes. So wasn’t it actually a set up to doom humanity? You do know we’re not all the descendants of a man who lived 6000 years ago, yeah? Even if one man was tested by God, most of us wouldn’t have inherited any sin. The Bible talks about God walking with Adam, and you believe that part – so what about the naming (and checking of sexual compatibility – huh?) of all the animals, the woman from the rib, the talking snake? Were they really ashamed to be naked, when most of humanity had invented clothes by that time? Did man really live for hundreds of years back then? I get the feeling you like some parts but ignore others.
Another question on the matter of a just god – you say even if someone is good, but doesn’t choose your god, it’s no salvation for them! So for all those who happened to be born in the wrong time or place, through no fault of their own, who were raised to believe in different gods, or saw no reason to believe – will miss out!
Try getting back to the idea of original sin as is in the Bible (inspired by your god, yes?), instead of talking about Jesus’ spirit giving us a conscience (mentioned nowhere in the Bible). You’re making stuff up. Weren’t people accountable to God before Jesus’ death?
Rape victim – I’m interested, how is seeking the permission of the father to get out of marrying a rapist a just thing? Why is it even an option? It’s a rapist! What scripture says there’s a way out if the father (note: not the mother, or not the victim!) chooses? I did notice the rapist who raped a betrothed woman was to face death, but I also noticed if the woman didn’t scream loudly enough, she too was to face death!
Disobedient children – however bad a child gets, is it okay to stone them to death? Really now. Why couldn’t God have invented boot camp or prison or something instead? Even locking someone away seems a more moral thing than stoning them to death! To compare a life to tax payers’ pockets seems quite immoral. People can have a change of heart, ask for forgiveness, pay back what they stole, or even be wrongly accused of a crime – there’s no way to settle situations like that in a just way if the person is dead.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:02
Matthew
I’ve got news for you – not everything you read on the internet is true.
By the way have you managed to find time to consider my question at 64?
January 27th, 2009 at 13:07
Reply to Comment #59
To Chris,
You asked, “When exactly did everyone start believe in God ?”
As the intelligence level of Homo Sapien improved, he started believing in God. That also explains why atheists don’t believe in God. A SCIENTIFIC THEORY should not involve speculation of any kind. There should not be much scope for any personal opinion, interpretation etc. Such theory must stand on its own. It should not require any support from public opinion. Evolution Theory does not fulfil any of these requirements. Even fairy tales are somewhat more logical than evolution theory. So, only persons like you who have some different “personal” definition of scientifically verifiable evidence, will accept evolution theory as a scientific theory. Intelligent Design Theory is nonscientific in form as well as in substance whereas Evolution Theory is scientific only in form and not in substance. I also can label myself as creationist by churning out a theory that speculates on “beginning of life”.
Now, coming to that LHC. Only idiots will ask for funds for a project that involves smashing of Protons. Hunt for “God’s particle” is simply a nonscientific nonsense originating out of Meson speculation. This Mesonic babble itself indicates that so called scientists associated with this project do not know the basics of Physics. There is no point in allocating a single penny, cent or paisa for this silly, childish & absurd LHC project…
January 27th, 2009 at 15:39
Re. Comment 71,
So, remind me Samir, what exactly are the basics of physics?
January 27th, 2009 at 16:40
I think you should look at the cartoon in the current PRIVATE EYE.
It shows a bus with your rather unoriginal slogan on its side: the bus is being driven by the Devil, wearing a triumphant sneering grin, and, as the terrified passengers raise their hands to an empty Heaven, HE STEERS IT OVER A CLIFF!
Well, it’s funnier than anything Dawkins has ever said …
January 27th, 2009 at 17:42
Re. Comment 71:
Let me tell you, translating your confused babble of a reply in readable English was really worth it. I recommend reading this comment to everyone for the good of their health – a laught does your body good.
It’s quite hard to dissect your arguments though, on the basis that they are impenetrable and your mistakes numerous.
“As the intelligence level of Homo Sapien improved, he started believing in God. That also explains why atheists don’t believe in God.”
That conclusion makes no logical sense. I like cake, therefore caterpillars. Could you please enlighten our humble selves as to the logical steps involved? Are you perhaps suggesting that humankind is getting less intelligent, and thus atheism flourishes? Or are you suggesting that atheists are idiots – something easily disproved by a quick search for notable atheists.
The jump to evolution from there confuses me also. And the actual content of your commentary on it is near gibberish. However, the one clear point is that you consider evolution to be un-scientific. Since you fail to make clear the assumptions upon which this assertion is based I can only address the idea of what is ’scientific’.
Falsifiability: one of the most important elements of science, the idea that something can be proven to be false. This is the test of what is scientific, can a theory be proven to be false? It’s a confusing idea, since this is not the same as asking if something is false, but whether it is possible for it be proven false. You quite rightly make the point that Intelligent Design is unscientific, and it is so because it postulates the existence of a non-falsifiable creator. God cannot be proven not to exist, because you cannot prove a negative. Thus, intelligent design is unfalsifiable, and non-scientific.
Evolution however could be proven to be false. If for instance we found the wrong kind of fossils in the wrong layers of strata, we might have to say that evolution was proven false. In this way evolution is falsifiable. This makes it a scientific theory. All evidence currently suggest that it is correct, though we do not fully understand all the mechanisms involved in it, much like the Theory of gravity.
This is not a “different ‘personal’ definition of scientifically verifiable evidence”, but he basis of science as we know it.
To be honest, that is all so much bumf, because such arguments are fought and re-fought across the internet all the time. Logic wont convince you because it isn’t really logic that made you come to your decisions, but upbringing and a ‘feeling’ that you have decided is more important than logic. I think you should leave logic alone if you refuse to listen to it, and let science be. The personal and religious judgement that evolution is not true, should not be brought up in scientific discourse. It is not based on logic, but on belief. Evolution is based on evidence and logic. Leave logic alone.
“Now, coming to that LHC”… oh dear.
I’m a reasonably intelligent fellow (immodest I realise), and even after much reading on my part, I only have very basic understanding of the concepts and mechanisms involved in the LHC. However, your problem appears to be with language (quite apart from your inability to create paragraphs, coherent sentences and logical steps in your writing).
The ‘God particle’, is not in fact called any such thing. It is called the ‘Higgs boson’, and gained the nickname ‘god particle’, after the title of a layman’s guide to particle physics, called “The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What is the Question?”. The theory it is quite sound from my limited understanding. It is predicted to exist in the most accepted theoretical model of particle physics. If discoverd by the LHC, it could explain (as the prediction suggests) how the transfer of mass works. Essentially we currently have a diagram with a big Higgs boson-shaped hole in it, which needs to be filled for our current model of particle physics to work. Other predicted models do exist however, and I would suggest you read about them for yourself. A couple of hundred words isn’t enough I’m afraid.
But “silly, childish & absurd” it most certainly is not. It is exciting, marveloous, and a testimony to the efforts and achievements of science and human curiosity. It also creates hope and enthusiasm about the future of scientific discovery.
£5.3billion to build a venue for the olympics, now that is silly, childish and absurd.
Beside, if you think there is no Higgs boson, then it could prove you right. And imagine how you coudl sneer at scientists then.
I apologise to those with a greater knowledge than me of the scientific method, and particle physics for any and all mistakes (to those with less knowledge I’ll just pretend I made no mistakes).
And sorry for the length – it’s obvious I have an essay to hand in. Still, doubtless it has doubled the size of the comments page.
TTFN,
Ian
January 27th, 2009 at 17:43
Wow, even I’m amazed at how long that turned out. The small comment box made me think it was going to be long – but not THAT long.
Sorry chaps,
Ian
January 27th, 2009 at 18:08
Ian,
No need for any apology. Well said.
January 27th, 2009 at 19:46
@Mathew
“Thankfully with the Internet we have numerous tools to use at our disposal helping us to understand the meanings of words in their original format.”
Such as what? babelfish?
January 27th, 2009 at 21:06
It is arguable that as man’s intelligence has developed he has sidelined religion more and more. The notion of a single, hands-off god who only takes one morning a week of your time is practically atheism already compared to most of the older religions which required so much more observance. This bus campaign is just mostly run by people who want to get the process over and done with.
Christianity paved the way for Atheism when it rejected complex practices in favour of something you can do on your day off. No divine wrath followed and people started wondering if they could do even less.
January 27th, 2009 at 22:17
Oliver R:
You’ll be amazed at just how many available tools are on the market to help with translation, especially with Biblical translation, there are literally hundreds of dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, and commentaries available. Just check this link for what’s available if you’re willing to pay some cash, not that I am: http://www.logos.com/gold You can get a handful on what’s offered here on some free software programs as well.
January 27th, 2009 at 22:55
@quedula: “Have you ever considered the possibility that your god exists ONLY within the confines of your skull?”
Of course I have, in fact Yahweh does reside literally in me in Spirit form!
January 27th, 2009 at 22:56
And guys, I don’t come from Camberwell, I’m not even sure if I’ve ever been there, closest I reckon was using the trains running through Stockwell
January 27th, 2009 at 23:28
Matthew: If Yahweh does reside literally in you in Spirit form, then do you or don’t you have free will?
January 27th, 2009 at 23:54
Matthew wrote:
“You’ll be amazed at just how many available tools are on the market to help with translation, especially with Biblical translation, there are literally hundreds of dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, and commentaries available.”
And while you’re the subject of transcriptions and translations, Matthew, lets not forget all those hundreds of disparate scribes over the centuries with poor memories, dodgy handwriting, too much wine, cholera, bad syntax, myopia, insect bites, too few women, flatulance, writer’s cramp, piles, and even the odd noisy goat, for getting the Bible stories all mixed up.
Well, that neatly explains all the contradictions, mistakes, untruths, fallacies, physical impossibilities, in the good book, and its obsession with death, disease, togas, fallen women, stones, locusts, temples, boils and sores, sandles, and a goat called Harry (Deut. ch 6, v 17).
Thanks for clearing that up, Matthew.
PS Before it gets written into the next version of your book, I was joking about the goat. His name was Bob.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:28
Reply to Comment #82
To nilgün oven,
I will slightly modify your question to Matthew & try to answer it.
Is “Free Will” really free & what is the relation between Free Will and System Opinion? Almighty’s axis represents Truth, logic & sanity whereas Devil’s axis represents falsehood, absurdity & intolerance. Through Free Will, one can move either towards God or towards Devil. If you are a member of some school-of-thought, you are not considered as a person with Free Will because you have no alternative than working within the guidelines set by that school. Almost every school-of-thought has got some rational agenda & some irrational agenda. The moment you start defending irrational agenda of your school-of-thought, some Free Will person will point out your deviation from Truth. In short, a Free Will person continuously moves in an area that lies in between different schools-of-thought.
System always tries to push Free Will persons towards illogical stand. System wants them to believe in religious fanatism, evolution theory, space-missions or some stuff like that. If aggregate “Free Will” perfectly aligns itself with Almighty, then System will have to embrace irrational stand forever…
January 28th, 2009 at 9:39
Samir:
Your Babel fish definitively needs feeding. Try thinking harder.
Peace
January 28th, 2009 at 12:10
@nilgün oven:
I still have my choices, but I also have God’s Spirit to guide me in the way that I should go.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:33
Can I say what great news this is. If you have not seen it, I recommend everyone reads the Christian Voice press release at http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press122.html It is hilarious.
January 28th, 2009 at 13:20
I doubt whether Babel fish is of an use to me. Your opposition to Google will take you nowhere. Google is many steps ahead of Yahoo!
I am trying to put things in as simple manner as possible. By the way, have you understood a single word from “Truthfulness” ?
January 28th, 2009 at 13:50
Reply to Comments #57 & 85
To Simon Bishop & Richard W.
Hey, you Yahoo! kids, What is this translator babble ? I hope you know the difference between transliter & translator. My mother tounge is MARATHI. I don’t think Google has developed any translator for converting content from Indian languages into English.
It seems that you have failed miserably in finding out my whereabouts. That means, you still could not verify whether my Free Will is really intact or not. Keep it up kids. God is great.
(Pls. note : Comment #87 was addressed to Richard W. as reply to his Comment #85. Correction : First line should have been “I doubt whether Babel fish is of any use to me.” )
January 28th, 2009 at 15:41
Matthew: I don’t know how you can have your choices with an all-knowing God beside you. If the outcome of any choice is known – not predicted – prior to the decision, then there is no choice. On the other hand, if this God is literally in you, then actually it’s God and not yourself who makes the choices. In both cases, either you have no free-will and you cannot be held responsible for any action of yours or God is not all-knowing.
January 28th, 2009 at 16:23
Reply to Comment #90
To nilgun oven,
I hope you won’t mind if I, once again, interrupt your interesting discussion with Matthew. The reluctance of a Free Will to align with Devil’s axis cannot be equated to a known choice. In other words, if a Free Will person keeps moving towards God, you can’t say his will is constrained or his choice is known. Ultimate aim of such Free Will person is to get the same set of choices as that of Almighty. When this goal is achieved, then that Free Will person is said to have become one with God. During the process, a person will always be held responsible for his actions.
January 28th, 2009 at 16:45
Samir, please dry-up you are making my head ache.
January 28th, 2009 at 18:03
Reply to Comment #92
To quedula,
It is quite natural. When things go against you, you suffer from headache. I will quote a line from original post : “… It’s a great day for freedom of speech in Britain…” I feel sorry for the European Public Transport system which is carrying the burden of atheist-ignorance.
Why don’t you make it a rule that only atheists should submit comments here ? The birds of the same feather can f*** together.
Competing in this global market is NOT your cup of tea, you mediocre Britons ! So long as hopelessly incompetent European atheists keep providing funds to the third class atheists within India, we will keep pointing out your mediocrity, inefficiency & absurdity. So called scientists working on Large Hadron Collider must have realised that defeating mediocre atheists in the field of science is damn easy. Whatever you know from science is already known to theists. In addition, theists know something which is beyond your grasping power.
Have you understood a single word from the article “Truthfulness” ? That article is available on my blogspace at htttp://samirsp.blogspot.com
Don’t ever try to find my whereabouts. Easy going creatures like you are fit for nothing. British citizens don’t know the basics of gambling. Ha, Ha, Ha !!!
January 28th, 2009 at 19:27
@nilgun oven
Yahweh does influence my decisions but at the end of the day I choose to go left or right. However, Yahweh does know the choice I’ll make beforehand and that’s the advantage I have.
How much esteem to you place on Dawkins, does he influence your decisions? But does he personally make decisions for you?
January 28th, 2009 at 19:56
Samir, what I’m saying is, when I have choices A-B-C-D and God knows that I’ll choose C, and I actually choose C, then it means I don’t have free will. If I choose B, then it means God doesn’t know.
You say: ” Ultimate aim of such Free Will person is to get the same set of choices as that of Almighty.” Though still illogical, this may be argued concerning ethical choices; however, I’m talking about choices like whether I should wear a blue shirt or a white one. God still knows my choice, and I have no clue as to what the Almighty’s special preference would be so that I could make it my ultimate aim.
For this reason, I say, if God knows, then there’s no choice.
January 28th, 2009 at 20:08
There is never anything to be gained engaging with loonies; all you will ever get is tedious megalomania, non sequitur, and gratuitous insult. Wouldn’t be so bad if they could be entertaining with any of these.
_____
January 28th, 2009 at 20:13
Matthew,
I respect Prof. Dawkins’ knowledge and it is true that I’m influenced by his views. But those qualities you attribute to God – all-knowing; all-powerful; all-good – I’m sure Prof. Dawkins would refuse them, even if I wanted to define him that way.
In any case, the concept of free-will causes problems for the theist because of the qualities he attributes to God.
January 28th, 2009 at 22:11
Matthew,
I get the feeling your belief is based more on an emotional need now rather than any logical arguments. I could be wrong, but it’s as if you have to ignore my questions in order to hold to your worldview. Hardly an honest thing to do. It might be you’re afraid of not existing when you die, or you just don’t want to admit you’ve lived a lie, or something else. Just as long as you understand that.
Unless my points are addressed, what other conclusion can I draw except that evolution undermines the idea of ‘original sin’ and the idea of Jesus dying for our salvation – probably the most important belief in Christianity – becomes meaningless. Even if let you get away with saying his death gave us a spirit of some kind to let us stand before God, we wouldn’t have all inherited this ‘Breath of Life’ from Adam. Just the fact that language existed earlier than 6000 years ago shows this idea is in error to start with.
It seems to me like a failed attempt to water down the harshness of the OT rules when you spoke about the father of a rape victim being able to stop the marriage taking place. I’ve honestly never heard of this before, which is why I requested the scripture. Does it exist?
I’m willing to change my mind on everything I’ve written, if my points can be answered at a satisfactory level. Are you willing to change your views on what you believe if flaws are pointed out that you have difficulty with? All too often, especially with a belief based on emotion, the next step for someone in your shoes is to say to oneself ‘whatever I’ve heard and have difficulty reconciling with my current beliefs – it doesn’t matter too much because the debate over whether my god exists is beyond human understanding.’
You might want to think about whether it is a belief based on emotion, because if it isn’t you shouldn’t have to leave my questions unanswered, hoping they go away.
January 29th, 2009 at 4:45
Reply to Comment #95
To nilgun oven,
Almighty has created this beautiful world alongwith the universal rules of science. As per the rules of biological science, every living organism has to follow a cycle of birth, life & death. When we come to this world, our brains are not pre-loaded with knowledge. That would not be in line with the rules of biological sciences which suggest that we have to develop our personal knowledge-base in a logical manner. That means God doesn’t pre-programme us to be criminals or non-criminals. He doesn’t want to violate His own laws of biological science. That’s why He has given us Free Will with which we make choices. Why should it push you to a conclusion that if God knows then we have no choices ? God knows everything. That’s why He wants us to use our Free Will & move from ignorance to knowledge, from darkness to light.
You said : “I have no clue as to what the Almighty’s special preference would be so that I could make it my ultimate aim.”
That’s precisely the reason why philosophy is developed. Omnipotent God is Omnipresent entity as well. Our ignorance prevents us from sensing His presence all around us. He continuously keeps giving us hints. As we wipe out our ignorance, we can get those hints. Whether you consider ethical choices at macro level or simple choices at micro level, logic remains the same. Whether one should wear white shirt or blue shirt depends upon many things. What will you say about those who go for cross-dressing ? When your intention is to fool others through cross-dressing, you move against God. We do have a Free Will but many a times our ignorance (ego or urge to exploit others etc) forces us to make choices which push us away from God. That obviously doesn’t mean that God does not know !!!
January 29th, 2009 at 8:19
Adam Tjaavk:
Very true Adam. Looks like a couple of the Dulwich gnomes have managed to board the bus.
It’ll be just my luck if one of them comes and sits next to me.