A Quick International Round-up
9.03.09 | Jon - Webmanager |
International
The atheist bus campaign is going international… Or to be more precise a whole bunch of different people all over the place have liked what we’ve done in the UK and are doing similar things in their own towns and cities. Here’s a round-up of the international developments!
- Bus Kampagne / Germany – the campaign to put buses on the streets in Germany (Köln, München, Berlin) is now online. Site visitors can choose their slogan and make online donations. Berlin and München transport authorities do not want the ads it seems, but the guys are determined to find alternatives.
- Uskomaton bussikampanja / Finland – the campaign for atheist buses on the streets of Helsinki. €3500 donated so far. News in English here.
- Atheïstische Reklamecampagne / Netherlands – a huge atheist advert on the side of the A4 motorway near Schipol airport.
- Atheist Bus (English) / Canada – buses in Toronto and Calgary, and even an atheist streetcar party (that means tram, folks), $46000 donated so far.
- Bus humaniste (français) / Canada – the Association Humaniste de Québec is running ads on buses in Montréal.
- Atheist Bus / Switzerland (DE | FR | IT) – local bus firms are resisting the advertisements, but this might also result in bans on religious advertising. Paypal donations are possible.
- Atheist trams / Croatia – ads appeared for 1 day on trams in Zagreb but were removed after complaints. Freedom of speech in a formerly communist country? News in Croatian here, Google translation from Slovenian here.
- Campagna Bus / Italy – despite some legal issues with the bus company the campaign continues in Italy, with €30000 raised so far.
- Bus ateo / Spain – buses in Madrid, Barcelona, Malaga with slogans in Spanish and Catalan.
- Atheist Foundation / Australia – a one-off bus after other ads were not permitted. Latest news here.
- Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign / USA – new campaign for buses in Bloomington, Indiana
- Freedom From Religion Foundation / USA – bus campaign in Madison, Wisconsin
- NYC Atheist Bus Campaign / USA – no website yet, but join the Facebook Group
- Why Believe in a God / USA – bus campaign in Washington, and also a new campaign in Seattle.
If there are other atheist buses anywhere else please do let us know in the comments!
We were invited to make a presentation at Re:publica ‘09 in Berlin about the campaign. Here is the video of the presentation – click Jon’s face to start the video! Then fast forward 5 minutes into the video.
293 Responses to “A Quick International Round-up”
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Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 » Show All
March 15th, 2009 at 17:37
@46, David Taylor
But David YOUR words were “non-belief is futile”.
So how many of the other gods do YOU believe in?
We just go one god further.
March 15th, 2009 at 17:44
@44, David Taylor
“and I understand what proof is – intangible evidence people”
Proof requires Tangible evidence!
Evidence that can be repeated, tested and demonstrated by other parties.
March 15th, 2009 at 17:56
@44, David Taylor
I think you will also find that the non-religious group is the fastest growing group in the West. See this from today’s Sunday Times –
“The nonreligious are now the third biggest grouping in the US, after Catholics and Baptists, according to the just-released American Religious Identification Survey. The bulk of this shift occurred in the 1990s, when they jumped from 8% to 14% of the population – but they have consolidated in the past decade to 15%.
”
Full article – http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article5907453.ece
OK that is only the US but you will find similar trends in Europe as well.
March 15th, 2009 at 18:24
Atheist bus campaign starts in Finland
The phenomenon known as the Atheist Bus Campaign that started in England has found its way to Finland. The Union of Freethinkers of
Finland and The Finnish Humanist Union have combined forces and produced an advertising campaign that follows in the foot-steps of the
original campaign.
The campaign slogan is almost an exact translation of the original, adapted to Finnish language. Campaign is hosted at http://uskomaton.fi which itself is a clever wordplay in Finnish. “Uskomaton” directly translates as “amazing” or “unbelievable”, but also means “unbeliever”.
Campaign organizers are looking forward to raising enough money to pay for bus adverts in all the major cities in Finland (there aren’t that many, Finland is a small country
).
So far the most successful free-thinker campaign in Finland has been the http://www.eroakirkosta.fi web-site launched in 2003, which provides a simple and efficient service for leaving the national church. Last year almost 50,000 Finns (1% of the population) used the service.
If you wish to contribute to the campaign, you can do it via PayPal or international bank transfer at http://uskomaton.fi/kampanja/lahjoita.html#english
March 16th, 2009 at 1:11
All praise the wall of unformatted text! Paragraphs are of the devil! Blessed be the incomprehensible for they are truly not going to be read by the secularists! Whatever!
March 16th, 2009 at 8:38
Re David Taylor.
For those of you unaware, this is the same Kent “Dr Dino” Hovind the David Taylor is promoting, by publishing his website.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16451/kent-hovind-dr-dino-guilty-on-all-counts
I think this just about sums up Taylors tirade against atheists, but it seems a shame that someone who pushes the website of a convicted criminal (currently still serving his sentence) is allowed to teach vulnerable children. Guess we’ll just have to let Taylor struggle with his own conscience over that one.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:15
@ Richard W
Like I have previously said, I am not promoting the man, since he was guilty of fraud and various other crimes, I agree. The fact remains that his arguments re: evolution are sound. I notice no one has succesfully refuted them! If I believe that murder is unacceptable, and then get arrested for fraud, does that mean that murder now becomes legal? Come on people, think for a change instead of regurgitating the same mindless drivel as everyone else is. I love my job, because it enables me to get to the kids minds before people like you are able to poison them. And for the person who seems to think that atheists are growing faster than Christians, please take a look at this link: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html It shows that non-religious (and that includes agnostics, who actually make more sense then you do) groups account for less than 17% of the worlds population, down from about 20% five years before. We are making ground! This earth is being claimed back for Christ! So carry on with your campaign, it’s a great launching tactic for us to help atheists open their eyes to the real world. It’s happening every day, as atheists start to question more and more how they can deny the existence of something just because they have never encountered it for themselves. They are starting to realise how small minded their presumptions are. They are being faced with unsurmountable evidence against the fraud that is macroevolution theory. By the way, atheism in south africa is next to nothing, particulalry in our leadership (the media can’t see that). But as a result, God has honoured this country in a big way. We are booming, largely unscathed by the economic crisis. In fact, we’re doing better, especially Christian businesses! They are reporting more business than usual. Why? Because scripture says ‘when things are tough, the Lord will protect those who love Him.’ I’m bowing out of this debate now for 3 reasons. 1) My intention is not to prove Christianity right, but rather for you to take a chance, and just ask God to show Himself to you. Then you will see what I’m talking about. If you choose not to, then you are free to continue on your mindless campaigning for nothing (pardon the pun). 2) You seem to be insistent on attacking the man Kent Hovind, but no one has mentioned his views on creation and evolution. Why? Because they are watertight! 3) I have a job to try and help as many people see that Jesus is Lord as possible. I have hundreds of children passing through my classes each day, which I use to preach His Word through my lessons (Thank God, it is legal in my country to do this). The atheist governments of the UK and USA are so scared that there evolution theory will be found out to be a fraud that they have made it illegal to talk about creation and/or Jesus in the schools! But God thankfully still manages to reach the masses, despite your little red buses. Oh, and by the way, my conscience is 100% clear with regards to the children that I teach. Most of them love and know God so much, and it makes a difference. The one reason that most public UK and USA schools are unbearable (and I have been there) is because the children get no religious education. Whereas here, we embrace it. Children are disciplined, full of life and enjoyment, full of respect to their elders. Long live God in schools! I pray our government maintains the status quo, lest our public schools become a cesspit like those in your country.
March 16th, 2009 at 10:56
There was a try of atheist tram campaign in Croatia two weeks ago, but the adds were banned after a day. The adds were payed by an organization called “Coalition for secularism”, and it went something like “No God – No Master.”
March 16th, 2009 at 11:26
David Taylor wrote:
Like I have previously said, I am not promoting the man [Kent Hovind],…
Wrong David! You are promoting Kent Hovind. In post 32 you even spelt out his website, “dr dino.com”, without giving any warning as to the true nature of this greedy crook’s murky past.
This is a man who makes a lot of money deceiving the gullible, especially children. Yet you, a teacher, are prepared to steer children to the site of a convicted tax evader who is still in jail. Are the parents of those children aware of your links to Hovinism multi-million dollar business empire?
Are you aware that much of those unpaid taxes would have been used to build hospitals, schools and centres for vulnerable people, including children.
Do you have no regrets promoting Dr Kent Hovinds money-making ventures at the expense of vulnerable, gullible people?
Just think of those poor sick children next time, before you promote his site. Do you have no shame?
March 16th, 2009 at 11:31
David Taylor wrote:
Like I have previously said, I am not promoting the man [Kent Hovind],…
Wrong David! You are promoting Kent Hovind. In post 32 you even spelt out his website, “dr dino.com” without giving any warning of Hovind’s criminal past. This is a website which sells “educational products” which are Hovind’s income.
This is a man who makes a lot of money deceiving the gullible, especially children. Yet you, a teacher, are prepared to steer children to the site of a convicted tax evader who is still in jail. Are the parents of those children aware of your links to Hovinism multi-million dollar business empire?
Are you aware that much of those unpaid taxes would have been used to build hospitals, schools and centres for vulnerable people, including children.
Do you have no regrets promoting Dr Kent Hovinds money-making ventures at the expense of vulnerable, gullible people?
Just think of those poor sick children next time, before you promote his site. Do you have no shame?
March 16th, 2009 at 11:51
Again, not one comment about the damning evidence against your cause and that of evolution. Instead you continue to attack the fact that he evaded tax. Why don’t you take that up with a tax website, it’s irrelevant here. My children and parents are well aware of my support, not of the man, but of the arguments that he makes regarding evolution. You see, in our country, people are taught to respect the mans theories, and not dismiss them simply because he evaded tax – that would be stupid, with all due respect. By the way, I work with those ‘poor, sick, children’ on a daily basis here, and all they have to keep them going is their unfaltering faith in a very real Jesus Christ. 90% of the institutions in this country are funded exclusively by christian organisations. Don’t try play that card on me, it’s easy to say that from your rich western country where you think that spending money solves the worlds problems. We have found out that money is important but it yields much more results if it is accompanied by a real teaching of Jesus in their lives. It has worked time and time again in the communities in which I work. In this country, we have, through our christian teaching, made ‘atheism’ almost redundant, because we teach intelligent thinking here. So please, we as Christians do not condone Kent Hovind’s actions – true they were wrong. But it doesn’t change the fact that through his work he has practically disproved evolution, and SCIENTIFICALLY proven that there is one God!
March 16th, 2009 at 11:53
And what about all the atheist people who have evaded tax? I suppose they are not morally reproachable… Please, get over your personal attacks…you are wasting God’s time…
March 16th, 2009 at 12:00
David Taylor wrote:
“You seem to be insistent on attacking the man Kent Hovind, but no one has mentioned his views on creation and evolution. Why? Because they are watertight!”
This might be the daftest thing anyone has written in this tread!
David, are you truly not aware that even your favorite Creationist website have had to publish disclaimers against Hovinism, because they are so flawed? Do you not read anything on these sites that you push vulnerable children towards?
“Again, not one comment about the damning evidence against your cause… ”
Read on David!
This is a damning critique by Creationist website AiG (Answers in Genesis) of Hovind’s whacko theories:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060114035614/www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
David, you must be one of the few whacky creationists still pushing Hovind’s work. What’s the betting you will now start praying that none of the parents find out about what your doing. Promoting a criminal’s website is one thing, but to fill children’s brains with mush that even your quoted AiG website are warning against is quite another. Those poor kids – in Britain this would be classed as abuse, so you’d better stay in Africa and hope no one finds out what you’re doing.
Shame on you, David.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:36
This link to Aig specifically lists Kent “Dr Dino” Hovind’s work which is deemed to be particulary flawed.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060111073547/www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/1011hovind.asp
Hovind is also noted for his other weird theories. including:
The US Gov’t destroyed the Twin Towers;
The US Gov’t were responsible for the Oklahoma bombings;
Hovind believes that the cyanide-releasing compound Laetrile is a “cancer cure” and argues that the US government is conspiring to suppress a cure for cancer;
Regarding UFOs Hovind recommends books by conspiracy theorists who believe “some UFO’s are U.S. Government experiments with electrogravitic propulsion as opposed to jet propulsion, while others are Satanic.
Hilariously, Hovind has also been recorded in jail on the phone to his family, desperately trying to hide assets of his from the IRS.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:50
Abuse? I feel so sorry for the children in your country, that they are not allowed to make decisions for themselves in your pathetic schools. The fact remains that there is far more evidence supporting the Christian God than that against him. Africa is awakening my friend, because we know God. God is shaking this world, look at climate change, economy etc. My advice is to make sure you’re on the bus. I feel no shame in what I’m teaching my kids, because it is right, and we (christians) are backed up by far more people than back you up. Our kids parents have been on the website, but you see, they are able to think for themselves. They are able to make their own conclusions from the information. We are not a people that ban them from the website because the man is a tax fraud. I looked at the aig site, wow I’ve never seen so many flaws in an arguement, I’m actually laughing! Your atheist bus campaign would never work in South Africa, the people here love God to much. Anyway, I’m seriously pulling out of this thread now because I’m in a world-wide ministry called ChoZen, aimed to bring more people to Christ, and guess what, the UK is on our list! You will see us making a stand in your country soon! But right now, I have more children who desperately need to know God’s love in their lives. And no Richard, I have absolutely no shame, you are the one who should have shame, spreading your poison on the internet. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I don’t understand how you can deny God, simply because you haven’t seen him. I am engaged to a wonderful girl, I suppose you would also deny her existence because you have never seen her or experienced evidence of her? What a laugh. All you and your campaigns have done for christians is boost our numbers, and of course, provide endless humour.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:56
David Taylor, I think everyone visiting this thread will note that you have conveniently changed the subject from my point about Kent “Dr Dino” Hovind.
Your continued support for this criminal (even though still in prison), and your continued promotion of his multi-million dollar enterprise will be noted by all visitors here.
It seems a shame that so many Christians lead hypocritical lives.
Yes, shame on you David!
March 16th, 2009 at 13:10
All I can say is that I will pray wholeheartedly that God will touch your life, you clearly know nothing about what hypocracy is, or even what clear thinking is. Thank God you are in the vast minority, and shrinking still. Good luck, cos if you’re not gonna have God on your side, you are seriously gonna need good luck.
Shame on you, for imposing your immoral views on so many people!
March 16th, 2009 at 14:28
@ Richard
Since you seem to be so concerned about the children in my care, you might like to see some of the other websites that I direct them (and there parents) to. It is as a result of some of the arguments made therein, that most of the kids I teach have completely disregarded atheism as a belief for people without the ability to think. The second link shows that it is possible for atheists to see the Light (pardon the pun).
Enjoy
http://theseekeroftruth.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-atheism-is-wrong.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6688917/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071201620.html
http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/{CDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446}/CL_Atheism.pdf
March 16th, 2009 at 14:36
“I feel so sorry for the children in your country, that they are not allowed to make decisions for themselves in your pathetic schools.”
That’s right, they have to take religious education whether they like it or not, so their choice not to has been removed.
“Shame on you, for imposing your immoral views on so many people!”
Explain the immorality of accepting that there is no god, whereas I can explain the immorality of Christianity using scare tactics, or take money from people who can scarcely afford it to prop up a religious hierarchy. Who pays for the pope to live in comfort, who pays for bishops to live in style?
Religions are no worse than the mafia, they employs similar tactics.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:57
@ Pete “Explain the immorality of accepting that there is no god”
Take a look at this from CARM ministry;
I don’t see any convincing evidence for the existence of God.
That does not mean there is no God.
Since you cannot know all evidence, it is possible that evidence exists that proves God’s existence, or at least supports His existence.
Therefore, it is possible that God exists.
If it is possible, then faith has its place.
If it is possible that God exists, then you should be an agnostic (an agnostic holds that God may exist but no proof can be had for His existence.)
It is possible that there is no evidence at all for God.
But this cannot be stated absolutely, since all evidence would need to be known to show there is no evidence.
Therefore, since all evidence cannot be known by any one person, it is possible that evidence exists that supports theism.
Then what kind of evidence would be acceptable?
If you have not decided what evidence would be sufficient and reasonable, then you cannot state there is no evidence for God.
If you have decided what evidence is sufficient, what is it?
Does Christianity fit within that criteria?
If not, why not?
Is it possible that your criteria for evidence is not reasonable?
Does your criteria put a requirement upon God (if He exists) that is not realistic? For example:
Do you want Him to appear before you in blazing glory?
Even if that did happen, would you believe He existed; or would you consider it a hallucination of some sort, or a trick played on you?
How would you know?
Does your criteria put a requirement on logic that is not realistic?
Do you want Him to make square circles or some other self-contradictory phenomena, or make a rock so big He cannot pick it up?
If God exists, the laws of logic would be a product of his nature since he is absolute, transcendent, and truth (logical absolutes are conceptual, absolute, and transcendent which reflect a logical, absolute, and transcendent mind). He did not create the laws of logic. We simply recognize them because God exists. Therefore, God cannot violate those laws because He would violate His own nature — which He cannot do.
Are you objectively examining evidence that is presented?
Granted, objectivity is difficult for all people, but are you being as objective as you can?
But, do you have a presupposition that God does not exist or that the miraculous cannot occur?
If so, then you cannot objectively examine the evidence.
Therefore, the presuppositions you hold regarding the miraculous may prevent you from recognizing evidence for God’s existence.
If so, then God becomes unknowable to you, and you have forced yourself into an atheistic/agnostic position.
Do you define the miraculous out of existence?
If so, on what basis do you do this?
If you assume that science can explain all phenomena, then there can be no miraculous evidence ever submitted as proof.
If you made that assumption, it is, after all, only an assumption.
Is atheism viable? (from http://www.carm.org/secular-movements/atheism/atheism-viable)
Atheism is, essentially, a negative position. It is not believing in a god, or actively believing there is no God, or choosing to not exercise any belief or non-belief concerning God, etc. Whichever flavor is given to atheism, it is a negative position.
In discussions with atheists, I don’t hear any evidence for the validity of atheism. There are no “proofs” that God does not exist in atheist circles; at least, none that I have heard — especially since you can’t prove a negative regarding the existence of God. Of course, that isn’t to say that atheists haven’t attempted to offer some proofs that God does not exist. But their attempted proofs are invariably insufficient. After all, how do you prove there is no God in the universe? How do you prove that in all places and all times, there is no God? You can’t. Besides, if there was proof of God’s non-existence, then atheists would be continually using it. But we don’t hear of any such commonly held proof supporting atheism or denying the existence of God. The atheist position is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove since it is an attempt to prove a negative. Therefore, since there are no proofs for atheism’s truth, and there are no proofs that there is no God, the atheist must hold his position by faith.
Faith, however, is not something atheists like to claim as the basis of adhering to atheism. Therefore, atheists must go on the attack and negate any evidences presented for God’s existence in order to give intellectual credence to their position. If they can create an evidential vacuum in which no theistic argument can survive, their position can be seen as more intellectually viable. It is in the negation of theistic proofs and evidences that atheism brings its self-justification to self-proclaimed life.
There is, however, only one way that atheism is intellectually defensible, and that is in the abstract realm of simple possibility. In other words, the atheist would have to propose that it may be possible that there is no God.1 But stating that something is possible doesn’t mean that it is a reality, or that it is wise to adopt the position. If I said it is possible that there is an ice cream factory on Jupiter, does that make it intellectually defensible or a position worth adopting merely because it is a possibility? Not at all. Simply claiming a possibility based on nothing more than it being a possible option, no matter how remote, is not sufficient grounds for atheists to claim viability in their atheism. They must come up with more than “It is possible,” or “There is no evidence for God,” otherwise, there really must be an ice cream factory on Jupiter, and the atheist should step up on the band wagon and start defending the position that Jupiterian ice cream exists.
At least we Christians have evidences for God’s existence, such as fulfilled biblical prophecy, Jesus’ resurrection, the Transcendental Argument, the entropy problem, etc.
There is another problem for atheists. Refuting evidences for the existence of God does not prove atheism true anymore than refuting an eyewitness testimony of a marriage denies the reality of the marriage. Since atheism cannot be proven, and since disproving evidences for God does not prove there is no God, atheists have a position that is intellectually indefensible. At best, atheists can only say there are no convincing evidences for God that have been presented so far. They cannot say there are no evidences for God, because the atheist cannot know all evidences that possibly exist in the world. At best, the atheist can only say that the evidence presented so far has been insufficient. This logically means that there could be evidences presented in the future that will suffice. The atheist must acknowledge that there may indeed be a proof that has been undiscovered, and that the existence of God is possible. This would make the atheist more of an agnostic since at best the atheist can only be skeptical of God’s existence.
This is why atheists need to attack Christianity. It is because Christianity makes very high claims concerning God’s existence, which challenges their atheism and pokes holes in their vacuum. They like the vacuum. They like having the universe with only one god in it: themselves.
1. I do not believe it is possible that God does not exist, and I think such a claim by an atheist is ultimately illogical.
Basically, it’s no point arguing with you since the evidence is STACKED against athiesm. I am just thankful that you are part of the ever-shrinking minority…
March 16th, 2009 at 14:59
For David Taylor:
I note too that not only are you prepared to withold information from children and their parents about Dr Kent “Dr dino” Hovind’s criminal past regarding tax evasion, but you also seem to have “forgotten” other aspects of his murky past.
Presumably, you are the sort of Christian that “overlooks” the failings of Christians around the world.
Or maybe just when it suits you?
Good luck, David Taylor, for you may need it more than I. Remember to keep praying that the parents don’t find out who you’re promoting to their children.
NB: Dear readers, just to avoid confusion with the name, this David Taylor, is a children’s teacher in Africa, possibly South Africa.
The details of creationist Kent Hovind’s conviction are here:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16451/kent-hovind-dr-dino-guilty-on-all-counts
The details of the Creationist AiG webpage discrediting convicted “Dr” Kent Hovind as flawed is here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060111073547/www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/1011hovind.asp
March 16th, 2009 at 15:09
David, you still haven’t told us what you will do when God asks you to explain why you told people that she had an illegitimate son thousands of years ago.
I’m sure that if she exists she would rather be ignored than slandered. Given that the bible was written by men with political goals, I will therefore reject it as false and refuse to pass on claims which I know were made up.
March 16th, 2009 at 15:15
Mr Taylor, your last cu’n'paste outburst didn’t explain what was immoral about not believing there was a god.
As to proof, I see no empirical evidence that a god exists, only words written, translated and distorted by men over thousands of years are offered.
If there was a god she would have shown mercy to all her children that suffered in the Tsunami, and her believers who starve to death in third world countries.
If there was a god she would lead you from the path of self righteousness, she would have prevented all those wars in her name.
The greatest problem of all is that man has created this mythical god in his own image. Ask yourself why there are so many religions at odds with each other, ask yourself why so may have died in the name of religion. Why do the religious types think they are entering into battle in gods name, or with gods support.
In God we trust, or more likely, to god we pass the blame for justifying death.
Save your prayers for someone else.
March 16th, 2009 at 15:18
@56
David,
A quote from the same site that you used http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_44.html#315
“Thus, the picture is complicated, making definite predictions of the future growth or decline of atheism difficult. What is clear is that in certain societies, non-belief in God is definitely growing. While most people continue to maintain a firm belief in deities (especially in the most populous countries, there is clear evidence of secularization in many advanced industrial nations (Norris and Ingelhart, 2004; Bruce, 2002). Secularization is specifically evident in the empirically observable decline of belief in God within many western nations. ”
Which confirms my original post – Western nations are tending to increase levels of non-belief
March 16th, 2009 at 15:19
David Taylor:
I note too that not only are you prepared to withold information from children and their parents about Dr Kent “Dr dino” Hovind’s criminal past regarding tax evasion, but you seem to have “forgotten” other aspects of his murky past.
Presumably, you are the sort of Christian that “overlooks” the failings of Christians around the world.
Or maybe just when it suits you?
Good luck, David Taylor, for you may need it more than I. Remember to pray that the parents don’t find out who you’re promoting.
NB: Dear readers, just to avoid confusion with the name, David Taylor, is a children’s teacher in Africa, possibly South Africa.
The details of creationist Kent Hovind’s conviction are in the link in post 55.
The details of the Creationist AiG webpage listing “Dr” Kent Hovind’s discredited theories is the above post 61.
March 16th, 2009 at 15:27
Bubalus:
That’s a very good point, but unfortunately we’re not sure if David Taylor can read anything unless it’s in his version of the “good” book.
… although Taylor does seem very familiar with some dodgy websites.
Taylor seems unable to answer simple questions without C&Peeing vast tracts of irrelevant text.
March 16th, 2009 at 15:33
@David Taylor
You have stll not answered my question
How many of the other (5000+) gods do YOU believe in?
Do you teach your children about them all, or are you hiding “the truth” from them.
March 16th, 2009 at 16:04
Well, I have proved the point I was trying to make; sarcasm is very hard to pick up on over the medium of text. I’m surprised everybody didn’t just call Poe’s Law on me, to be honest. Of course I don’t see the ABC as persecution; it is merely Ms. Sherine’s opinion on the side of a bus. It doesn’t hurt anybody, nor would I expect it to. The campaign is simply turning round to theists and saying “I disagree” and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Seriously, I can’t believe you lot thought I was being serious about the ABC being a form of persecution.
March 16th, 2009 at 16:08
Do it yourself
in Australia
http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/03/12/if-you-dont-have-an-atheist-bus-near-you/
_____
March 16th, 2009 at 18:04
I believe in my God, and not the 5000 others, simply because no other god has as much biblical prophecy fulfilled. You seem to think i’m withholding info about dr dino from parents and kids. You don’t understand that in my country we actively discuss all the issues. My kids are well aware of his tax fraud and the like, but we are focused on theories of his. Our people are able to think critically for themselves! @ Michael, God will not ask me why i lied about ‘her’ illegitimate son, rather he will bless me for explaining to so many people His truth. Who told you Jesus was illegitimate? Nonsense! An illegitimate child is the result of sexual intercourse outside of marriage. God did not have sexual intercourse with Mary, any fool will be able to see that if they just read the bible. You may reject the bible as false, but it has been right many times when science was wrong. Examples are the fact that the sun is still in the sky, that earth is round, and many more. Science disagreed with these originally but science has continually CHANGED as more tech advancements are made. The bible has not changed, and still is correct after so many years. By the way, this blog has been emailed now to many of my co-workers, i have to say that your arguments and cause have become the laughing stock of the school!
Here is an interesting thought… We as christians have many proofs that God exists, such as biblical prophecies fulfilled, non-biblical proof that Jesus resurrected from the dead. Yet I have yet to see a single proof that God doesn’t exist. I find that simple thought dismisses atheism as utter rubbish. I have often told my kids you need more faith to be an atheist then to be a christian, because to be an atheist you need to believe a lot of already disproved hogwash. I am seriously tired of this debate, this is SERIOUSLY my last post. Good luck people, please don’t take my comments seriously, I commend you for believing so strongly in your cause. I just hope soon you will see how futile your cause is. And remember, even though you don’t believe in God, He believes in you
March 16th, 2009 at 18:20
You are a very, very disturbed person. Effectively mad. You need treatment;
SOMEWHERE ELSE
March 16th, 2009 at 18:57
@David
I don’t believe that science ever predicted that the Sun was going to fall out of the sky, or that the world was flat, could you provide your source for those statements?
Aristotle knew that the Earth was round, long before chritianity came along.
You need better examples of prophesy, even a boken watch is right twice a day.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:02
@David
I don’t think you understand science.
The whole point is that we don’t know everything and are willing to refine what we know according to the evidence.
Whereas religion claims to know everything IN SPITE of evidence to the contrary.
What is the subject and level you teach?
March 16th, 2009 at 19:15
@ David Taylor.
Whilst you are brave to attack the atheists here in defence of Christianity, you have made a fundamental flaw in that you are defending the wrong religion. Become a Muslim, my friend, and let Allah guide you to his glory.
We Muslims have many proofs that Allah is the true God, such as scientific facts in the Qu’ran being confirmed by non-Islamic scientists hundreds of years later and the fulfillment of Qu’ranic prophecies, yet I have yet to see a single proof that Allah does not exist.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:22
So going by Mr Taylor’s hypothosis, the earth is indeed flat, Robert J. Schadewald wrote:
The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book. …While the Bible nowhere states categorically that the earth is flat, numerous Old Testament verses clearly show that the ancient Hebrews were flat-earthers. This comes through more clearly in modern translations such as the New English Bible, but it’s clear enough in the King James Version. The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault. (See Genesis 1:6-8 and 1:17. Note that, even in KJV, while there are waters “above” the firmament, the celestial bodies are “in” it.) This makes no sense unless one assumes that the earth is essentially flat.
What amazes me is how many different variations there are on the meaning of the words of bible, ask any religious loony and you’ll get a different version each time.
Back to morality, would Mr Taylor explain all those people in America who claim to speak for god, then go on to ask his followers to show their love of god by sending cash to the spokesperson. If god is the creator of all that we see, why does she want donations? Why can’t she create bread for the hungry, either she isn’t doing a very good job of looking after her flock, or she exists only in the minds of the weak minded.
Now let me say, I do not go to religious web sites telling them they are fools, or trying to convince them to turn away from religion, so why does Mr Taylor feel the need to come here and attempt to convert us? Mr Taylor and his ilk are the reason I took up a proactive stance, I was quite happy being a private artiest until religious time wasters tried threatening me with everlasting damnation.
I’m now glad that Ariane has brought us together and allowed us to see that we are not alone, and that people like us are united all over the world.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:42
The latest on the Oz Atheist buses can be found at http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=518
March 17th, 2009 at 12:47
@David Taylor
You are repeating lies. God did not have a son. Why do you insult her so?
March 17th, 2009 at 13:48
@ Michael
God definately did have a son. Do you know how I know? Because I have spoken to Him and been spoken to by Him. That is a fact! The point here is you are trying to convince me otherwise, with nothing whatsoever to back up a statement like that. Honestly it feels like I’m debating with a three year old. Guess what? God is there, He hears what you are saying about Him, and He (not she) loves you all the same.
To the person who maintains I need help, I’m afraid it is you that needs help. I have discovered one thing through this debate. Atheists are incredibly insecure about conversing with Christians, because they realise that the evidence is far weightier in the Christian’s favour. Atheists (the ones on this site anyway) are particulalry insecure. This is because I find it incredibly immature that the comment moderator did not publish my comment that contained 5 internet links to sites that essentially implode atheism as one of the weakest stances ever encountered by humanity. Why is that? Because it’s threatening, that’s why!
The world is starting to realise that atheism is a lost cause, and the independant Christian church is reporting bigger and bigger numbers each year, mostly people who had previously been poisoned by the likes of atheism.
I thank the Lord here publically that He is doing this wonderful work. Take heart, He could touch one of you next
And you’d better fasten your seatbelts cos it’s going to be one heck of a ride.
March 17th, 2009 at 14:11
Dear deluded David
I received your post by e-mail, so I don’t think it’s been moderated, perhaps there is a technical problem. I don’t feel threatened by your words, I do feel insulted and offended by the constant tirade of terror tactics though.
Errm, excuse me, you are here on an atheist site trying to convince us, it’s you that is on the big sell matey!
So you’ve spoken to your god eh! Not even the Pope has made that claim, you really are a loony.
I’m not at all insecure about my atheism, but then it’s not me using terror tactics to frighten the weak minded into following your religion, I am however heartened by the significant number of freethinkers.
With Christianity there is heaven or hell after death, with atheism there is nothing, an option I’m quite happy with thank you very much.
The Independent Christian Church eh, have you ever asked yourself why there are so many different sects of the Christian faith, your lot can’t even agree on what your bible says, or stand as one voice.
May your god go with you, but I prefer to walk alone…. thanks all the same.
March 17th, 2009 at 14:18
You are way deluded. Off course the pope has claimed to speak to God, what do you think prayer is? Didn’t think about that did you?
And the reason there is so much difference in the church is because we all have traditions that came out of different cultures. We do all however, agree that Jesus is God, He died for our sins, and we KNOW there is a heaven waiting for eternity. We are way more united than you might think my poor deluded friend.
March 17th, 2009 at 14:20
Here is a comprehensive list of scientific facts that the bible contains before man ‘discovered’ them. It is for these reasons (among many others) that I accept the bible as accurately recorded and inspired by a very real God.
1. Science has only recently discovered that everything is made up of invisible atoms. However see Hebrews 11:3, It speaks of “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
2. Medical science has only last century discovered that blood-clotting in a new born reaches a peak on the eighth day. Scripture consistently says a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.
3. The prophet Isaiah tells us that the earth is round, 2 400 years before secular man discovered this fact. Isaiah 40:22 says “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth.
4. Job 38:19 asks: “Where is the way where light dwells?” Secular man has only recently discovered that light has a “way” traveling at 186 000 miles per second.
5. Science expresses the universe in 5 terms: time, space, matter, power and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed these truths to the Hebrews in 1450 BC. “In the beginning (time) God created (power) the heaven (space) and the earth (matter) …And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters. Here God is proclaiming at the moment of creation that HE CONTROLS THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE.
6. The biological importance of blood has only been fully understood in recent years. About 120 years ago, sick people were ‘bled’ to get rid of disease (many died). However in Leviticus 17:11, written 3 000 years ago, blood is declared to be the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”
7. Luke 17:34-36 says that the second coming of Jesus will happen when it’s night for some people and day for others. This is a clear indication that the earth is round, and revolves. This was long before any human discovered this fact.
And finally, read Colossians 1:17. Since I realize you might not have bibles, here is the text:
“He (Jesus) is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (NIV)
This letter was written by Paul, a hundred years or so after Christ died. What is this thing that holds us together? Do you know that there is a protein (only recently discovered) called Laminin, that literally has the job of holding us together. It is the glue that holds each cell together. You may be thinking what am I on about. Check out this link, it shows a scientific (non-Christian) source.
http://foreverandalways.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/laminin.jpg
You will understand what I’m getting at. This protein molecule shows that the cross of Christ LITERALLY holds us together. So even though you are an atheist, you are marked by God, because you have a million little crosses holding your very life together.
Oh, the person who asked what I teach, I teach maths, science and biology. I love science particularly because it complements the bible so much. Many of the scientific principles that I teach are actually backed up in the bible!
I have debated many atheists with these arguments. The best retort I have had is that it is coincidence. Ha ha!
March 17th, 2009 at 15:18
@81 Simon Gardner, re. David Taylor
“You are a very, very disturbed person. Effectively mad. You need treatment;
SOMEWHERE ELSE”
I am sure you are on the right track Simon, but it depends how you define “madness”. D.T presumably has no difficulty in living a reasonably normal life. But he obviously does have a self-feeding obsession verging on mania. The scary thing about it is that he appears to have access to and control of children or young people, the next generation on which the future of the human race depends.
March 17th, 2009 at 15:35
@David Taylor
Your comment was not moderated, but there appears to have been a delay in posting, see #68.
As I expected, your so called biblical truths of science are so vague that they can mean whatever you wish to twist them into and therefore meaningless. For example your point 3 has also been claimed as indicating a flat earth, indeed a circle is 2d rather than a sphere or globe which is 3d. All of your examples are the same type of statements that you would expect from an astrologer, medium or any other charlatan.
If you accept that level of answer from your students in your maths and science classes I am just very glad that my children are not being educated by you.
Religion is not explicit in its predictions using vague statements that can be interpreted any way required and is only happy to be specific on its claims once science has exposed the truth.
Science however requires specific statements that can predict events, be tested, verified, and if necessary is happy to amend those hypotheses to fit with the evidence found.
Your reference to Laminin shows a schematic of a single molecule, try this one for a schematic for is use in the body – http://www.upei.ca/pathclub/fig13.jpg – not quite the cruciform now is it? And when you look at actual photographs the shape of the form varies extensively – try http://pharmchem.kfunigraz.ac.at/icmsb99/abstracts99/hansma.html .
However does, your logic imply that anything that has a vague cruciform shape implies god to you, more specifically your god: a lower case T; a road intersection, the bars on windows or indeed any molecule that has four ”hooks” which make it look cruciform?
Your last biblical quote “He (Jesus) is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (NIV) again can be used any way you wish, I have seen it before as indicating that it was the church that was being held together by Jesus not the physical body. In fact the next verse (Colossians1:18) makes this clear “And he is the head of the body, the church”
March 17th, 2009 at 16:04
David, I don’t know why you believe that you have been talking to God’s non-existant son. Given that afterwards you have been spreading lies about God I can make a fair guess about who you have really been speaking with who has driven you to such things.
Repent of your evil ways before it is too late.
March 17th, 2009 at 17:49
Ha ha its definately not evil, because u may think he’s non-existant, but i have been the subject of his miracles. He is more real to me then you are! You don’t realise it, but you are walking in such darkness, you can’t see what is right and true anymore… Its a shame…
March 17th, 2009 at 18:05
I’m beginning to think that I have a split-personality disorder here. I seem to be posting absolute nonsense here, yet I cannot remember making such posts.
The passages my namesake quotes are, like Qu’ranic passages relating to science, rather ambiguous. For example, the first passage could be relating to spirits, ghosts, angels, magical gusts of wind, etc. I interpret some of the passages differently to how “I” interpreted the passages in “my” last post.
1) I’ve already explained this.
2) “I” should have said why this is. It is probably more to do with the story of Creation than medical science per se. The Earth was created in 6 days, the 7th is for rest, so children are to be treated in a similar way, as they are a new “creation” that God wants us to circumcise on the 8th day as a means of acknowledgement to god’s creation of the universe. Furthemore, medical science has shown that circumcision is a dangerous and harmful practice that has no practical benefit. If the Bible were a good medical-science journal, it would not be advising circumcision at all.
3) Isaiah said a circle, not a sphere, and a circle is 2D. Besides, Ancient Greek astronomers had already discovered that the world is not flat.
4) “I” seem to have clutched at straws here. Iob’s interrogative does not imply that light travels, as he is talking about God. One could rephrase Iob’s question as follows; “What lifestyle leads to God?”
5) The existence of time, space, power, matter and motion are obvious to even a child. Noticing them is not a praise-worthy scientific achievement. Besides, would you say that a woman has power when she “creates” a baby through sexual intercourse? What about if the baby was the result of rape? If the Hebrews did not know about time, etc. 3450 years ago, they must have been extremely ignorant to the world around them.
6) Here, “I” have written absolute nonsense based on a poor understanding of medical history. People were bled to drain out infections in the blood, but this does not mean that people believed blood itself was detrimental to the continued survival of the individual. People also understood that stabbing somebody and letting enough blood flow out could kill them. The misguided doctors of the time killed people by believing there was “bad” blood mingled in with the good stuff, so they tried to get rid of it, but got rid of too much of it.
7) As I have said, the Greeks already discovered that the world was round, and the Hebrews were not alien to Grecian thinking. Indeed, Jesus is Greek for Ieshua, and Christ comes from Christos, which is also Greek. Ieshua often communicated in Greek (See the letters that Oscar Wilde wrote in prison for more on this). Furthermore, this quote could very easily be a metaphor, and it most probably is. The 2nd coming will occur when some people are enjoying a very happy life at the height of power, whilst others will be miserable and oppressed.
Now, where’s my brain medicine?
March 17th, 2009 at 18:47
The bus signs are coming to Ottawa, Canada…….and while I heartily support the campaign I regret that it takes such a pacific line. I’d much rather, “There are no gods. Lighten up.”
March 17th, 2009 at 21:37
@ #97, david:
I can see your point but a) there’s all kinds of advertising standards red tape about claims and verifiability, and b) it’s important not to alienate agnostics (like me) otherwise there’ll be a big holy war between atheists and agnostics.
March 17th, 2009 at 22:24
Honestly you guys make me tired because the long post above proves nothing except that my ‘namesake’ has no understanding of scripture whatsoever, no understanding of scientific views of the earth at the time of biblical writings, and to top it off, no common sense whatsoever. If you type laminin into Google images, all of the diagrams (schematic and micrograph) shows the cross shape.
I have learnt something about the atheist, and this shall be my overwhelming conclusion to this debate; the atheist exists only to refute any theistic claim, grasping on dearly to any hint of an argument, however vague it might be, for the sole purpose of attempting to prove the christians wrong. The atheist will tell me that I am deluded to think the way I do. If this were the case, the vast majority of the world’s population is deluded, and only the tiny minority that are atheists are normal. This is ridiculous. The atheist will deny the existence of God simply because they have not seen Him, even when evidence proves He exists. It is the most stupid idea to deny something exists on the basis it has not been seen (by the atheist anyway). Most christians have encountered God in a very convincing way. I wonder if atheists believe that Venus is covered with poisonous gas? Because if they do, they follow double standards, since none of them have physically encountered those gasses. And finally, the atheist spends so much time trying to prove Christians wrong, yet has not one ounce of proof that God DOESN’T exist. If there was such a proof, we would not hear the end of it.
@bubalus. It pains me that i cannot educate your child. It is one thing for you to reject overwhelming evidence for a God to exist, but to subject your poor children to the same archaic thinking is just criminal. It just makes me even more determined to intensify my efforts to see as many children to find God in their lives as i can. You should be ashamed of yourself for sheltering your children from reality. They deserve to know the truth, which you people hide from them. People like you should not be parents.
It is also unfortunate that atheists are determined to want proof of a God. Scripture clearly says that He will not be tested. I understand that you do not accept the validity of scriptures. But i can testify that when i and thousands of others known to me said to God, ‘please show me your power in my life’ God just takes control and life becomes a true journey. This becomes more real than any silly argument you come up with, trust me, it doesn’t even pale in comparison! My God is so real, if you don’t believe in Him, sorry for you! You’re missing out! Scripture says that ‘the things of God are closed to those who refuse to love Him, to them, everything is meaningless! I am using this blog page as an instrument to prove this to new atheists-turned-christians (there are a lot of them, God has been so good!)
March 17th, 2009 at 22:52
David, I will pray for you that you stop following this demon which has by your own admission bought your belief with ‘miraculous’ displays of its infernal power and that you open your eyes to the truth before it is too late and you condemn your soul to hell.
God help you.